transabled.org

I completely agree. No one made any scientific advancements without risk.

The problem is in the old “ethics”. Bah.

But there are enough people who are in the field of bio-ethics that basically say that it’s unethical to let us suffer when such a “simple” solution is available! Read Levy & Baine

While it might prove difficult if not impossible in the case of amputee wannabes, I would think that doing a study on the “placebo” effect of such surgery on certain types of wannabes (deaf, blind, para) would be relatively easy to achieve, no?

It would not be placebo effect. The object of using a placebo is that the person taking it does not know whether it is the real medication or just a sugar pill. Therefore the results would have to from what the person imagines the effects are, even if they haven’t been given the medication.

What Mixed Breed is talking about is the effect of pretending, which while good, is certainly not fooling anyone. That kind of thing is useful as far as a “real life test” to prepare ourselves for post-surgery, bit like transsexuals are expected to live as a woman (or man if they are M-t-F) for a period of time before surgery.

Funny, the medical establishment does not have much trouble with new, experimental procedures to attempt to correct congenital defects, even if the life of the patient is not threatened. We often read about experimental surgery to separate siamese twins, eventhough life is not at risk, but the overriding argument is to provide what is deemed or perceived to be ” a better quality of life” for the patients. I do not know if donor organs have ever been used in these situations where the twins share organs, but I am certain somebody would advocate the attempt.

The lives of the patients must be worth more than limbs, hearing or eyes. In the case of adult twins, they are given the option of the surgery, in one recent case both twins joined at the head died. Yet, they were apparently otherwise healthy and made it through to adulthood.

Ah, So! QUALITY OF LIFE IS THE MAIN ISSUE THEN!!! A HA!

Actually, Sean, I was in fact talking about the placebo effect - i.e. I was questioning the possibility of using a medication to test the placebo effect in, for example, a paraplegic wannabe by using some sort of epidural or nerve blocker in the cauda equina nerves. Granted, the subject would know that they didn’t have an actual spinal cord transection once the medication started wearing off, but wouldn’t it be possible to monitor their psychological state until then? This is hypothesizing that there are such medications in existence currently…

Problem being, the moment the “subject” is aware they are not receiving the real deal, the experiment is doomed to failure.

Using placebo is a form of “control”, to see how people not receiving the “right” thing react and then later compare that to the others.

Even if there were a placebo with which to test treatments of BIID, the sample size of patients is probably too small to easily reach meaningful statistical conclusions.
THAT, however, wouldn’t prevent some case studies with a couple carefully selected and studied patients (Sean should be first in line). Or, too bad there isn’t an easily reversible way of paralyzing legs (at least for more than than the couple hours that spinal anesthesia would offer). Then, maybe some physicians might be willing to at least try?
It is an interesting line in the sand that the medical profession draws: they won’t do anything for us but will mutilate the faces of movie stars wishing to look younger than their years. Please tell me about the ethics of much of the cosmetic plastic surgery being practiced!

Yes, and by that definition, the aforementioned subject would be a satisfactory “control” up until the point they were notified they hadn’t received the real deal. Their reactions would be notable and genuine until they were made aware that they had been administered the “placebo”.

The effectiveness of the experiment would depend upon how long the subject could be kept “in the dark”, as determined by the longevity of the treatment. My question pertains to “how long” modern medicine would be able to prevent the subject from realizing that they had not been permanently given their desired disability? My guess is “not long” - but that was the question I was implicitly putting forward in my original post.

“too bad there isn’t an easily reversible way of paralyzing legs (at least for more than than the couple hours that spinal anesthesia would offer). Then, maybe some physicians might be willing to at least try?”

With all those illicit cosmetic surgeons you hear about in the news, you’d think that at least someone with the basic necessary medical training would be willing to perform a nerve block or something…

While I agree that a close case study of all the people who have achieved their impairment would be of vital interest and importance I think your baseline for the surgery is off. There would need to be a series of psych profiles and options done Before the surgery instead of a control group. A basic step would be to see if the person has any other disorders which would create or mimic the feelings of BIID and already have a treatment protocol.

Second would be a study of aternatives and their success rate: group treatment homes; individual therapy of various types; and to find out if, for example, hypnosis could give the person a Conversion Disorder varient of their desired BIID and the success rate of that. If and when that is all done, maybe a limited study of the most reversable and least invasive medical/surgical intervention could occur.

It really isn’t a case of “Establishment” conspiracy, but rather a standard way of proceeding through treatment options. If you feel so convicted then write to Dr. First or others who are interested and get them to do these preliminary studies (Hey, you could even see if Michael Bailey is interested, admittedly he might just ends up proving you are all gay, since that is what every study he does seems to end up with). Once you have the success rates of other treatments, you are more likely to get studies that involve some aspect of medical intervention. But again, the people who wish amputation realize that they will still be able to feel the limb even if it is removed, they will still dream having it and feel it and react as if it is there for quite some time. Which is why I think more studies into what those with BIID want and why they want it and what the expected outcomes will be and how they see life post actualization is a first step. It is critical in choosing appropriate treatment.

Bee, note I pointed out myself that a case study of people who have achieved their goal would be very interesting but would not be taken as seriously, exactly because of the lack of pre-studies.

Why dont you form a group to research BIID?
And then do a study in a clinic somewhere?
I know of people who wanted a “problematic” surgery, and they did that.

inVivo, forming a group is fine, but whomever conducts the study must have “credentials”, in other words, they must be a medical doctor or a psychiatrist, otherwise such study would be discredited in the eyes of the medical establishment.

The doing a study “in a clinic somewhere” implies that there is a clinic willing to do the surgeries. If there was a clinic willing to do these surgeries, we wouldn’t need a study!

But again, the people who wish amputation realize that they will still be able to feel the limb even if it is removed, they will still dream having it and feel it and react as if it is there for quite some time.

Is that really true (particularly the part about dreams)? I ask because i haven’t even had the amputations i need yet, but for as long as i can remember, in my dreams, i have been without the arms that i need removed.

As for feeling the phantom limb post-amputation, i suspect that IS true, although i’ve had something of the opposite effect - forgetting that my arms are present until i end up accidentally injuring them because they’ve gotten in my way (and the injury usually brings my attention to their presence fairly promptly).

Incidentally, a couple people I know who got their amputations say that they haven’t had phantom pain, at all. They do not feel the residual existence of the limb.

In my dreams, I use a wheelchair about 90% of the time.

I underwent a couple neurological exams (not in depth, admitedly), and passed all the reflex tests (that is, I “failed” in the eyes of the doc).

Maybe sometime soon, possibly part of Dr. First’s study, he could be the person who conducts the group to test if surgery is a good way to go (in doctors’ opinions). That would seem to be a great way to do it.