transabled.org

Sorry this got so long. ;)

Don’t be sorry, silly :) It’s good, else I wouldn’t have published it

mY comments on being Transexual and/or transabled

I am a M 2 F pre op transexual who in addition to always wanting to be a female I have always wanted to be disabled physically ie; a usless or amputated leg I find the fascination of being a good looking disabled woman to be so strong I get frustrated some times when I realise what would be entailed in achieving this. I have purchased and wear a leg brace to help my feelings but I want more

Have to admit that Standards of Care for transabled people would probably be good, but they would most certainly begin the way treatment for us transfolk began in the early 20th century: either lock it up, lobotomize it, or shun it. It took many years for Harry Benjamin and his colleagues to come up with standards that were comprehensive. We all have ideals, but I know of many, many doctors who feel that transsexual surgery is harmful, and even I think that making oneself a paraplegic through surgery is somewhat questionable in the sense that it creates a significant change in a person’s ability to live a fully independent life–I always worry that I will be a burden to my family. I would hate that, and if I were to end up disabled (I really hate that word), I am sure my family would take care of me as best they could. But let’s face it, folks, it’s not about being happy in this country. I can’t have surgery unless someone else approves of my choices, and even though it’s my body, I have no control over it at all. Unfair or not, it’s truth. For now, at least.

Hi Eric,

It is not uncommon for transsexuals to be disowned by their families and friends when they say it’s finally time to transition.

We all know that it’s a risk and we all take it because aligning our bodies and minds is worth it. (Of course those that never transition could believe that for them it is *NOT* worth the risk!)

I would be more worried about being disowned or divorced than being a burden.

Have to admit that Standards of Care for transabled people would probably be good, but they would most certainly begin the way treatment for us transfolk began in the early 20th century: either lock it up, lobotomize it, or shun it.

This is part of the reason why I’m so adverse to the idea of having BIID officially classified as a mental illness - despite the advances in understanding of the mind, and human behaviour, this is STILL the prevailing response of the MH professional community to anything new.

While I’d agree that there are many issues with the way mental health professionals handle many conditions, I think that there *has* been some advances in thinking and I don’t believe that the lock-up/lobotomize/shun combos are on the horizon.

We must get our foot in the door, somehow. Then readjust. I don’t believe that labelling BIID as a mental illness at this point would be such a negative thing.

Trans-maybe’abled’ism ?
I read recently in a newspaper a article ..about a story of a 3 year old boy who wanted to change his gender.
It was wierd ..thinking back..that something like this can start so young ? The story continued and eventually the boy turned 5yrs of age,and then began wearing girls clothes..and the parents eventually supported this change.
The attraction for boy child to be like his mother ..isn’t always a indication …that this person will want a sex change later in life ? Yet I can’t help but thinking ..that wanting to wear braces started for me when I was around 7 years old.
I wondered..
Is there a genitic code..encrypted into some peoples minds to be a certian way(so soon after they are born ) it becomes evident in many cases of sex change and wannabe needs ..that this developes from early childhood..?
If this is true ..what does this mean about human evolution ?
I dis-agree in this case that BIID should be labeled as a mental disease..unless it leads one into very self destructive action’s ?
Yet in the newspaper article ..what got the parents attention was that thier 3 year old boy tried to cut his penis off with apiar of sizzors !
The fact that self destructive forces came into play at 3 years old ..in order to have a differant body image ..was really wierd .
After the parents agreed to let the boy wear girls clothes..he agreed not to cut off his penis.
Hmmmm..is this the same for wannabes ?
I am a maybe ‘wannabe’ in that the idea of doing anything self destructive ..is a maybe .
I then wondered (after reading the article)how sexuality becomes connected to being dis-abled..when one ‘knows’ at a such a early stage of life ..that he or she shall be another gender..or be dis-abled in some way..?
I think medical science needs to study this ..without making judgements aganist people who are effected by these needs .
Also..I am very sure ..my upcoming trip into eastern Europe will result in me finding a doctor to do a ”Femoral nerve” surgey..?
The question here is ..how much I really want to get this done ? In the meantime ..I am feeling(after my trip to India last Dec.) less effected by the need to be crippled…and wear braces .
I am getting out a lot more ..without my leg braces..I guess I am in a sort of ‘remission’ from wannabeism..and living now in maybeism ?
In a few weeks I will get a surgey..to temporarily paralyize me legs ..I want to finally experiance how it would be to really need to be in braces..
Yet..since this experiance will only be a few short hours…it will be enough ?
I think there has to be a new term for people like me..its called trans-maybe’abled-ism ..
Oh..well

Pardon me for being the token outsider here, but I was interested and wanted to comment.
I have been a wheelchair-user since the age of 8 due to a congenital SCI. The reason why I wanted to comment was in response to two things in this article and the comments afterwards. I’ve never heard of transabledism, and while I applaud your efforts to raise the profile and gain understanding, this confuses me.

1) Marie mentions an example of a transabled condition: “For example a person may have an identity of someone that is paralysed,” which made me wonder - what exactly do people believe is the “identity” of someone who is paralyzed? While certain generalizations can be made about gender identities relating to the characteristics of owning certain genitals, the social roles played by such ownership, etc, people with paralysis are not such a homogeneous group - there is more that separates us than we have in common.

2) The point is repeatedly made that transabledism does not place any burden on society, and harms nobody… I have to take issue with this, given the idea of going to surgical methods to achieve true transability. Perhaps many forms will have no effect on anyone else - I can imagine that being deaf would not seriously harm anyone else, or learning disabled, for example. However, certain types of disability can and will place extra burden on social systems, resources and probably family and friends that wouldn’t have been there otherwise. Following this to the end result, if someone were to pay a surgeon to have their spine damaged at T12, that person would require regular physical therapy, medical visits, drugs, diagnostics, and medical equipment to sustain and protect their health. None of these would be optional in this event… and seem a really high price to pay (both physically and socially) for achieving the “TA goal.” All of these things are enormously expensive and are borne by either the individual themselves, the public health system, or private health insurance. Since most hospitals, clinics, doctors and nurses are government subsidized in some way (enormously in Canada and the UK), the cost to the government would be huge.

I do not mean to judge, I am just very confused at this prospect.

The question is not whether there is a cost or not - obviously there is a cost to it - but whether the cost of providing the treatment outweighs the cost of NOT doing it. In many cases, the costs incurred by depriving the BIID patient of proper treatment (i.e. physical ‘damage’ to the body) include immense expenses in therapy, mood-control drugs, and, in many cases, a suboptimal level (or complete lack) of productivity - all of which can be offset by the treatment. Yes, those costs would be exchanged for the cost of surgery, rehabilitation, and support, but a primary difference is that the former set of costs are completely wasted, whereas the latter set are most frequently effective (although I do yield that the population of those who have been successful at receiving these treatments is very limited).

Further, we must remember that cost is measured on more axes than just financial - if that were the only ‘cost’ that counts, we would have neither life-support nor comfort measures for terminally ill patients. Even in the cases where the financial cost of treating BIID properly clearly outweighs the financial cost of withholding such treatment, there is the matter of quality of life to be considered. It leads down a dangerous path if we begin denying effective treatments to provide quality of life for patients simply on the basis of financial cost.

First i ask you to excuse my english - it’s not my native language.

I’m a M2F post-op transsexual, so i can understand some of the discussed aspects very well. Nevertheless a had the requiring to add some more comments.

Proposing that there are also physical reasons that a person will become transabled, i would expect a much less percentage of transabled than transsexual persons. At the beginning of a pregnancy the foetus is a neutrum and has to change to female or male - it has not to change from disabled to healthy, it has “only” to grow. The first process bears more possibilities that
something can go wrong than the second.

Most transsexual persons (there are also variants) like to change from one healthy state to another. My wish was clearly to get rid of this male body and that ugly thing between my legs. But - i would also like to have the regular organs of a woman and the possibility to become pregnant. Transposed to your situation i wouldn’t get rid of my legs, i would like to have two other legs.

If there is no possibility for a successfull therapy, i would also agree to medical measures. With this agreement i would also put a question for discussion: “Has there to be a border? What surgeries are allowed? Are ultimate “solutions” possible?”

Such surgeries could also be paid from the health insurance, but i would say no to a disability pension.

Hello Katja,

You make interesting points and ask difficult questions :)

What surgeries should be allowed? I’m not sure. There is a surgeon that apparently does black market amputations out of Asia, but refuses to amputate both legs because “it’s too extreme” and refuses to do paraplegia for the same reason. Yet, we know that paraplegics can lead long, healthy and productive lives. I also know many vent dependent quadriplegic who are leading long, healthy and productive lives, so who am I to say that someone’s request to be come vent dependent and quadriplegic is not appropriate, or too extreme? In the end, I think it comes down to the ability for independence (whichever form that takes), long term health, and the ability to be productive.

As for disability pensions… I tend to agree that one shouldn’t be allowed to self injure, then get on benefits. OTOH, the impact of BIID on people is such that some people who have BIID and depression are on benefits *now*, without their required impairment.

Clearly, this is not what nature intended. The comment that surgeries etc. ought to be performed as long as the person is consenting and is not harming others is not only void of reasoning but selfish. Others ARE affected: partners, families, society (who will bear the burden of caring for someone who has inflicted a deficit in his/her functioning and ability to care for one’s self). As a therapist, I encourage all who have these feelings to go much deeper as to the reasons for these desires, and focus on coping with the negative thoughts and keep yourself safe from harm. This is not normal and to give into the impulse to harm self (as in suicide) is doing yourself and your loved ones and society a grave disservice. And remember, you may come to a day where you deeply regret any harm you did to yourself. Be logical: you were born whole for a reason, to enable you to live life to its fullest without obstacles. Ask your self how you benefit from harming yourself. Don’t settle for being comfortable now with the new body image. Go past that; in what specific ways will you benefit. That is what you need to focus on and analyse and get through.

Margaret

Margaret I sincerely hope you never give “therapy” to a transsexual. That line of thinking has caused nothing but hurt. “Oh just get over it! LOL!”

There’s a reason the success rate for genital reassignment surgery is very high: Because it works. Hiding doesn’t, ignoring it doesn’t. Because guess what? When there’s no other escape the person’s suicide will affect people more than “changing gender”. Waiting 20 years before coming out having spent the time “tring to cope with the negative thoughts” it affects the wife and children and friends. Dealing with GID and BIID early will prevent both suicide and other people from having to deal with someone else’s needs if they don’t want to.

We are born “whole” as we are with our selfidentifications and problems. Why should we deny our own brain chemistry and basic needs? Seems like obnoxious the religious nonsense (”How dare you secondguess god’s plan?”) zealots spew forth when they don’t approve with someone else’s personal choices in life.

Don’t take this comment as a flame (even though it is): I vehemently disagree with the aversion therapy people preach towards us. Please post again! Dissenting views are good to read.

Margaret, thanks for your comments. While what you say seems reasonable at first glance, it was spoken like someone who has no understanding of BIID, has never tried to counsel someone with BIID and who has done absolutely no research on BIID. It’s been said time and time again in the formal research done on BIID (which clearly you haven’t read) - talk therapy DOES NOT WORK. It doesn’t touch BIID. And as for regretting harm we’ve done ourselves, again the overwhelming anecdotal evidence (which you also clearly haven’t researched) from those who have been able to achieve their desired disability is satisfaction with the results and and end to the torment of BIID - and that the disability caused is more than a fair exchange for peace of mind. And as for affecting others such as our families and society…they ARE already affected by our depression, obsession, and frustration…the effects of mental illness. And I would argue that the psychological effects of BIID are more devastating to all concerned than physical disability is.

It’s much easier for someone on the outside - particularly one who is in a position of authority and control - to simply express how they wish the world worked, and simply dismiss the arguments of those with actual experience, when those arguments contradict the worldview of the academic theorist. It becomes even easier for those experiences to be officially dismissed when those espousing them can be categorised as ‘mentally ill’, which is a carte blanche for society to dismiss their beliefs, feelings, needs, and experiences as irrelevant.

As for the question of ‘what nature intended’, it is fairly clear that nature intended for species to cull their weakest members, rather than diverting resources from the most fit to survive to those who need assistance. However, that is one of the differences between civilized societies and the wilds: we, as an intelligent species, are capable of using our cognitive functions, as well as our sense of compassion, to deviate from nature’s intentions at times. As such, any argument based on those intentions fails miserably.

"it was spoken like someone who has no understanding of BIID, has never tried to counsel someone with BIID and who has done absolutely no research on BIID."

This seems to indeed be the case. It pays for people to read a bit more about BIID before making sweeping judgements. http://biid-info.org is a good starting point to find research papers and articles about BIID.

As an aside, Margaret doesn’t specify which type of therapist she is. Could be she’s not a psycho-therapist at all, maybe she’s a physical therapist or occupational therapist…

Maybe a massage therapist. What astounds me, is the condescending reactions to BIID and our feelings by people who are supposed to be enlightened professionals! One would think the profession has learned from its past mistakes eg. how transgender issues were “dealt with” 70 years ago. If it does not fit the mold their brain was forced into during 8 years of university, then it gets ‘WHACKO-HANDLE WITH CAUTION’ stamped onto it. Makes me wonder what little minds have gleefully nailed framed diplomas onto their office walls.

As for the question of ‘what nature intended’, it is fairly clear that nature intended for species to cull their weakest members, rather than diverting resources from the most fit to survive to those who need assistance. However, that is one of the differences between civilized societies and the wilds: we, as an intelligent species, are capable of using our cognitive functions, as well as our sense of compassion, to deviate from nature’s intentions at times. As such, any argument based on those intentions fails miserably.

Standing ovation for that one, Kyla!!

While I do agree that a “life experience” model would be of benefit, I do have serious problems comparing a medical model (transsexual) to a non medical model (BIID). For example, the purpose of a medical assessment for GID/transsexuality is because certain untreated mental conditions will produce the conviction of the need to be the other gender (schizophrenia being one). “Life experience” is to evaluate the motivation and adjustment of the person involved (for example if the person is only going to nightclubs with an “I’m so sexy” attitude, they probably won’t pass). Also because reality and fantasy are two different things. I myself had this fantasy about being blind at 6 or 7 (too many books about Helen Keller) - did it for three days, never had a fantasy about it again. Obviously a “life experience” could help to seperate those who can recieve other forms of treatment.

But gender identity is something which is hardwired into humans and through the horrid “nature v. nuture” sex assignments of the 60’s and 70’s, now conditions like intersex or ambigious genitalia wait until gender identity presents for assignment. Even the phrase GID is contested, because the “older generation” of specialists viewed it as a sexual dysfunction whose only treatment was a sex change - they viewed it akin to pedophilia (unable to change self view and behavoir) while the new generation, due to advances in brain chemistry science and other scientific studies see it more in a medical state. However, the majority of transsexuals which to be the appropriate gender (as in “I am a female” or “I am a male”) while only a small percentage will have transsexual as their identifier.

With BIID, I can’t see how you could do a medical model unless you want to test to see if able bodied and non abled bodied is somehow hardwired into babies? It would appear that BIID actually has far more in common with body dysmorphia than transsexualism. Both are resistant to traditional treatment (both have a core which is resistant to treatment at all). Both have people who are distinctly unhappy with the body they have and will go to great lengths to achieve what they desire (of course the advantage BIID has here is that 1/6th of people of BIID don’t starve to death - has any studies been done on percentage of suicide though?).

I understand the attraction to ally with transsexual as it now has a medical model (and three generations of trials and follow up studies) - however, you should know that the majority of medical people still see it as GID which is classified as a mental disorder and in many countries as a disability - that’s why it is in the DSM (much as homosexuality was 40 years ago). If you link to GID, you are saying, “Yes, there is something mentally wrong with us which can’t be fixed.” - which I think is not your intention. You could however consider the social impact model, such as body image dismorphia where the person has integrated the ideas spread by society to such a point that society, as a force, will continue to create this mental force on individuals as long as society continues to hold on to particular ideas.

Beth,

My take on GID is that it is something wrong with the brain, but not a exactly a mental illness. The brain identifies one way but the physical body (genitals and every cell in the body) identify the body another way. Transsexuals are treated surgically because nothing else works short of brainwashing and selfdelusion a la “Ex-Gays.” The body is far easier to change compared to the mind.

One can consider GID’s presence in the DSM because the disorder manifests itself in such a way that it presents as a mental illness. Severe depression, self-harm, and other fun stuff. Seems better to have GID in writing in a book for shrinks to be reminded of its presence so they can’t fob the diagnosis off a some crackpot theory. Of course, I could be wrong. I’m torn on GID’s presense in the DSM and its name. Some days I prefer “Harry Benjamin’s Syndrome” for political reasons and wish it was out of the DSM (We’re NOT crazy!) and other days I don’t care.

Why is it so bad to be labelled as having a mental illness? Could someone tell me what the F*** is so bad about it? Obviously, society’s pressures and perception make it a negative, but I fail to see how a mental illness should be perceived any more, or less, negatively than blindness, or paraplegia.

As far as I’m concerned, I would much prefer to see BIID listed in the DSM, because it has to be listed *somewhere* before medical professionals take us seriously. I say, put it in the DSM, start studying in properly (studies for origins of, causes of, as well as treatment options, including surgery). Then in 25, or 50 years from now, work at getting it removed from the DSM if appropriate. I’m much with marie about BIID manifesting itself with depression, self-harm and “other fun stuff”.

I don’t mind saying “yes, there’s something wrong with me that can only be fixed through surgery”.

As for the comparison to body dysmorphia, there’s one major element that is different. In general, those with dysmorphia view their body as wrong, or abnormal, whereas those with BIID know that our body parts are perfectly normal, they just don’t fit with our mental map of our bodies.

Dr. First, who is an editor of the DSM, and who coined the term BIID came up with BIID with the concept of GID in mind.

Simply put: because once a person is labeled as mentally ill, any chance, no matter how slight, that may have existed for that person’s expression of his/her needs to be taken seriously by the medical community, is completely and irrevocably negated. That’s all. A label of mental illness is a guaranteed assurance that we can simply be dismissed and ignored, told that it’s all in our heads, and thus be denied not only the physical treatments that we need, but even the right to be heard by physicians or properly studied.

I completely, utterly and absolutely disagree with that Kyla… :)

It should be noted that the conclusions from the post mortem studies carried out on transsexuals have received fairly damning criticism in the scientific community. The researchers, themselves, had to reassess their initial findings after they failed to take into account the hormones that the transsexual individuals had taken in their lifetime.

There is currently no concrete evidence that Bstc (the area supposedly responsible for ‘brain sex’) is responsible for transsexualism. To claim this as fact or truth (as many do) is, at this point in time, pure speculation

Lydia, Source?

I don’t see mental illness as being a bad thing for BIID to be labelled as. At least, as Sean put it, for now.

Homosexuality, for example, remained repressed and unspoken of for a period, and was then categorized as a mental illness.

It was only a matter of time that it became relatively accepted by society. I’m not saying that being gay and BIID are the same, I’m just saying they’ll probably suffer similar circumstances. And even if current BIID sufferers don’t reap the rewards of their efforts to get it known, at least they may know they have given BIID people of the future a better chance of a mentally satisfactory life.

Living a lie is the worst human punishment.

I agree, Sean…I think that everyone who says “I don’t want it called a mental illness” is just propegating (sic) the stigmatizing that those with mental illnesses have to face in this society. And it’s not fair. On the other hand, as someone who has dealt with Major Depression since I was 16 (I’m 30 now), I understand not wanting to have to deal with the stigma if you don’t have to. It’s a burden and difficult to bear.

I am a social work student, actually studying BIID for a research paper, and came upon this forum and had some things to add. As a member of the LGBT community, I think I can lend some insight about transgender folk as well as the issues of the DSM.

My friends who are transgender see the fact that GID is in the DSM in this way: It’s how we get our surgery paid for.

It’s a crappy diagnosis, yes, and one that replaced homosexuality in the DSM III, if you want to know the truth, but I think that it’s not as stigmatizing to be put in there as it could possibly be. Now, I do have a friend who was hospitalized in the 1980’s for GID (against his will) - wrote a book called the Last Time I Wore a DRess…but it’s not generally something that gets people involuntarily committed.

Honestly, I think that getting BIID in the DSM would give it credibility, would get people funding for research, and would get better treatments/funding for surgeries, etc… All in all, I think it would be better than it currently is for people who have BIID.

My thoughts,

Amanda

Your comments are much interesting boys, but … : the main question remains open, completely unanswered : I want to obtain an amputation - and no surgeon is ready to perform it, although most of them are now ready to accept transgender surgeries. Should I put my legs under the wheels of a heavy lorry to become a DAK ?
Michael, from Brussels - Belgium.

I’m a transsexual man (female-to-male, FTM), so I’m trying really hard to keep an open mind here, but I can’t see any more than a most superficial connection between transsexualism and BIID.

Transsexuals are a diverse group, so some will take issue with the following. In my experience, the defining characteristics of transsexualism are:

1. An overall discomfort with one’s gendered body configuration, present from about age 3 or 4.

2. Identification with the opposite sex/gender, and the sense that ones brain, soul, etc. belongs to that sex/gender.

3. An awareness from at least puberty-onward that the hormonal milleu produced by one’s body is wrong for his or her brain, experienced as a traumatic hormone imbalance during puberty.

4. All transsexuals (in my opinion) pursue hormone replacement therapy (HRT) at the very least. Most also pursue some type of surgery. Almost all FTMs get double mastectomy/chest reconstruction. Most also get hysterectomy/oophorectomy, but there are reasons for that in addition to personal choice, including the presence of fibroids or cysts, and the fact that doctors recommend it with 5 years of starting HRT as a cancer prevention measure. Few FTMs obtain genital surgery (partly due to cost and the imperfections of the current technology).

Among transsexual women (MTF), most seem to pursue genital surgery and view that as the end of transition, while FTMs tend to view transition as more open-ended, with each treatment, surgery or stage as a milestone, but not the end of the journey.

The goal for both is to become more comfortable in our skin, to live life more fully, to be ourself openly–indeed, to become more able-bodied. Pre-treatment, transsexualism is like a handicap.

I will point out that I feel very strongly about that every individual should have absolute sovereignty over his or her body. No one should ever have medically unnecessary surgeries performed against his or her will, or without his or her consent, including neonatal circumcision and sex assignment of intersexed infants. Individuals should also to free to do whatever they wish with their own bodies.

But– Able-bodied individuals also have a responsibilty to take care of themselves, work for a living, contribute to the economy and society, help others who are less fortunate, etc. So, I find questionable the desire to be rid of one’s able-bodied status.

Sean wrote, “Why is it so bad to be labelled as having a mental illness?”

“A psychiatric diagnosis is more than shorthand to facilitate communication among professionals or to standardize research parameters. Psychiatric diagnoses affect child custody decisions, self-esteem, whether individuals are hired or fired, receive security clearances, or have other rights and privileges curtailed. Criminals may find that their sentences are either mitigated or enhanced as a direct result of their diagnoses. The equating of unusual sexual interests with psychiatric diagnoses has been used to justify the oppression of sexual minorities and to serve political agendas. A review of this area is not only a scientific issue, but also a human rights issue.” — Dr. Charles Moser and Peggy Kleinplatz in a 2005 paper published in the Journal of Psychology and Human Sexuality

Hello Wolfgang, thank you for your comment. I understand you are uncomfortable with BIID, most people are. Please let me address some of your points.

1. An overall discomfort with one’s gendered body configuration, present from about age 3 or 4.

Most transabled individual have an overall discomfort with their bodies from a very young age. My first memories relating to this go back to age 3 or 4. I am not alone.

2. Identification with the opposite sex/gender, and the sense that ones brain, soul, etc. belongs to that sex/gender.

Replace “sex/gender” with disability/impairment and you have the experience of a transabled individual.

3. An awareness from at least puberty-onward that the hormonal milleu produced by one’s body is wrong for his or her brain, experienced as a traumatic hormone imbalance during puberty.

Well, here we don’t have hormone issues, but we experience trauma at living in a body that is “wrong”

4. All transsexuals (in my opinion) pursue hormone replacement therapy (HRT) at the very least. Most also pursue some type of surgery. Few FTMs obtain genital surgery (partly due to cost and the imperfections of the current technology).

There is no hormone to take. The vast majority of transabled individuals would pursue surgery, but IT IS NOT AVAILABLE TO US. If surgery was an accepted option for transabled inviduals, we would jump at the change.

The goal for both is to become more comfortable in our skin, to live life more fully, to be ourself openly–indeed, to become more able-bodied. Pre-treatment, transsexualism is like a handicap.

Our goal is for us to be more comfortable in our own skins, to live life more fully, to be ourselves, openly. In effect, an impairment is our way to wholeness. Not having an impairment creates a disabling condition for us.

But– Able-bodied individuals also have a responsibilty to take care of themselves, work for a living, contribute to the economy and society, help others who are less fortunate, etc. So, I find questionable the desire to be rid of one’s able-bodied status.

You are assuming that people with disabilities are unable to take care of themselves, work, and be productive members of society. You are further assuming that transabled individuals are seeking an impairment to get on benefits, which is absolutely not the case. In face, it is without a physical impairment that we are less productive, less able to work, etc.

Right on, Sean!

I definitely agree with Sean’s last point. There are so many times when I withdraw from activities, part-time jobs (I’m a student), even going to the local restaurants — all because I just didn’t feel comfortable going “out in the world” as able-bodied. But when I’m in my wheelchair on wheeling trips, I actually engage with the outside world a lot more and want to do more with my life. It’s quite a drastic change.

Sean, you, and others, certainly speak of your condition using much the same language we do. I guess I just don’t/can’t understand why you would want to mutilate a healthy body part. Why? Yes, I know, people say the exact same thing to us transsexuals. But when a transman has a mastectomy, the surgeon uses the external tissues to create a flat, male chest. When a transwomen gets a vaginoplasty, the surgeon inverts her penis to create a functional neovagina. We don’t merely have these body parts chopped off, and of course their alteration doesn’t affect our ability to see, hear, or walk.

In all honesty, I not happy with the idea of you trying to draw comparisons between BIID and transsexualism. Transsexuals would be a lot more tolerant of you if you stopped doing that, and found your own language to discuss your condition with, unless you can somehow prove (using scientific research) that there’s a connection.

Two studies from the Netherlands have shown that the BSTc region of the hypothalamus is sexually dimorphic, and that those of transsexuals correspond to our gender identity. The studies also showed that hormones have no effect on the size of that region, which is about twice as large in males and transmen as females and transwomen. A recent study on phantom limbs found that most women experience phantom breasts after mastectomy but transmen don’t, and most men experience phantom penises after losing theirs in accidents, but transwomen, following vaginoplasty, don’t. Studies on mice and fruit flies have suggested a genetic basis for gender-specific behavior, and there are plenty of examples of cross-gender behavior throughout the animal kingdom.

The question is, are there any cases of animals exhibiting symptoms of BIID? If you want to be taken seriously, you’ll need to find that kind of evidence in addition to brain studies. Without any science to back up your claims, the only thing I can think is “Weird!,” but don’t take that too harshly because I’m pretty weird myself. I certainly support the informed-consent model of medicine, so, to each his/her own.

Wolfgang I just have to raise one point with your first reply:

But– Able-bodied individuals also have a responsibilty to take care of themselves, work for a living, contribute to the economy and society, help others who are less fortunate, etc. So, I find questionable the desire to be rid of one’s able-bodied status.

This is the kind of talk that kept us (transfolk) from treatment and surgery because we have otherwise healthy reproductive capabilities. Are we sterile people disabled because we can’t reproduce? Have we become unable to contribute? Others find that choice to be questionable as well.

By the way, Beethoven composed most of his famous Symphony no. 9 when he was “disabled” — stone deaf! ;-) Georgina Beyer (former New Zealand MP) is a transsexual, too!

@Wolfgang, I would say that “able-bodied”, “normal” and the like are relative terms. There is no perfect or ideal mind or body against which everyone’s must be measured. Anyhow, the point being made here, as I understand it, is that our body image doesn’t conform to the body we have. It’s nice that someone has maybe found something going on with the hypothalamus that might account for sexual identity, but the transabled community has not been able to stir enough constructive interest among the medicos to get to anything like that place.

Marie wrote, “Are we sterile people disabled because we can’t reproduce?”

Good point. I never thought of that as a disability, but I guess that’s the same thing BIID sufferers are saying about their limbs and senses.

Maybe there is some sort of body map in the brain, though it may be more complicated than that. There are ganglions (mini-brains) throughout the body to consider as well.

Wolfgang, FWIW, there is a team of neurologists, including a world reknown one, Ramachandran, out of UCSD who have found indications in MRI brain scans of BIID individuals that there is something “wonky” with the areas of body schema… Not proof at the moment, just solid indication that it’s likely to be more than purely psychological, likely neuropsychological.

One of the problems that arises in these debates (for transsexuals as well) is that science is finding that all so-called “psychological” manifestations have a physical neurological basis, whether chemical, structural, or both. “psychological” is in fact an antiquated and purely subjective concept.

The question then becomes one of individual autonomy vs. public interest. That’s, ultimately, the contruct in which all minority arguments will need to be framed. But for now, the general public needs to see scientific data, and, unfortunately, small demographics tend to be overlooked by researchers, even though such research can reveal useful information about the human body in general.

I will freely admit that when I first read about BIID, my initial reaction was identical to the reaction we transsexuals get from others. I won’t deny that the idea of purposely “handicapping” onesself makes me uncomfortable. On that note, I’m going to spend some time analyzing my reaction in the hope of becoming a better person.

HA! Tit for tat. My reaction to transsexuals has always been similar to your initial reaction to BIID. Then when I started to seriously consider my BIID, its implications, and the possibility and desirability of surgery, I realized that some re-thinking regarding transsexuals was in order. :o)

Astonished to realise that I, diagnosed TG M to F, but not proceeded with for 50+ years, have this condition. To the extent that I have seriously investigated self-castration, but never carried it out, because I have never found a “safe” way of ensuring my survival. Its my own personal problem, but I shall probably go to my grave never having been understood, or forgiving myself for feeling this way.
I do not understand it either, although its very real, to me.
Love and luck to all.

The main problem I have with all this BIID crap is the fact that no-one seems to have pointed out the essential differences between transsexuals and the amputees - namely that the transsexual has genital/breast surgery to enable her/him to live more fully and happily and BE THE SAME as everyone else while the amputee wants to curtail and induce various difficulties into their life and BE SEEN as different from everyone else.
And then might I ask what about the change of sexual orientation frequently seen in transsexuals compared to amputees? If a male/female lops of a leg/arm/eye does that make him/her more attractive to the same or the opposite sex?
Does the married amputee (is there such a thing?) think about the real and daily physical problems he/she causes his/her partner immediatly after amputation and in old age when the lack of a limb will increase the spouse’s and the health service’s costs and problems?
When does the desire for amputation start? In the womb or when playing doctors and nurses as infants?
Amputees are sick in the head - but I’d love to eavesdrop on a meeting of them to listen to them rationalising their behaviour.

Rose; You have really missed what has been posted on this site.

People with BIID want to end their suffering, and wish the medical community would take it seriously and come up with a treatment, other than the extreme.

Those of us who suffer with BIID suffer as those who require gender reassignment. We have had these feelings since early childhood, then suffered with having to deal with it from the time we realized it was not normal. We can not nor do we expect others to know exactly how we feel, we want this condition to be taken seriously.

Is some body becoming disabled to rid themselves of the need any more of a burden to their loved ones than a TG person who enters a heterosexual relationship with an individual wishing to raise a family naturally with their partner?

Those who contribute to this site have given the ramifications of their desires a lot of thought. Certainly all of us have given thought to how this would impact others. It should be obvious that they are not raving lunatics, or some fringe group looking for legitimacey. You are dealing with high functioning individuals here.

We do not wish to gain sympathy or empathy from onlookers. None of us want to become charity cases, wards of the state. We are not exhibitionists. Most of us do not give a hoot how others perceive us, this is about our own self image and a burning desire we can not explain nor fully understand. We all want a cure, right now the only cure that seems to work is surgery.

I think gender reassignment is accepted by the general public to what ever degree it is simply because it is politically correct to do so, not out of enlightenment. Those who make known their negative opinions on the topic are considered somewhere in the realm of Holocaust deniers.

Rose your comments are based on the assumption that BIID is attention/sexually driven when we have said countless times here our problems are not about other people.

I also think the disability rights community would have something to say about ur statement “Amputees are sick in the head”.

…I guess with the rose, sometimes you get the thorns…

…I think the people that have already commented have said most of what needed to be said.

BIID “crap,” Rose?

I’m sorry, but if you expect us to explain all of this to you, we need to know that you’re willing to listen with an open mind and without prejudice. Otherwise, it’d feel like we’re explaining something to a brick wall.

It’s like saying to gays, “Explain to me about this homosexuality nonsense.”

Rose is using a blanket term “amputee” to refer to people who have BIID. Of course, that’s not in the least accurate, as most amputees become amputees through accident, disease, or congenital conditions, and of course don’t wish or seek amputeeism in the least. Rose is confusing these people with the transabled or “BIID sufferers” who *desire* to be amputees, but most of whom are not actually amputees. So my point is that anyone who is entirely unable to distinguish between these two communities need not be taken very seriously.

Transsexuals are not like everyone, they need hormones the rest of their lives, the surgery takes away their gonads, so they produce no hormones and also they cant reproduce.

So they are impaired from a “normal” point of view.

And to add to what Claire said, many of us are not into amputation at all anyhow, need other conditions.

True Brice, myself included!

palsy types…

What I do say, is that I don’ t want to be turned into something I’ m not, and I don’ t wish that upon anyone, including this child. The aim of support or treatment for this child, or me, or anyone, should not be to“ normalize” them. When in …