transabled.org

Sorry this got so long. ;)

Don’t be sorry, silly :) It’s good, else I wouldn’t have published it

mY comments on being Transexual and/or transabled

I am a M 2 F pre op transexual who in addition to always wanting to be a female I have always wanted to be disabled physically ie; a usless or amputated leg I find the fascination of being a good looking disabled woman to be so strong I get frustrated some times when I realise what would be entailed in achieving this. I have purchased and wear a leg brace to help my feelings but I want more

Have to admit that Standards of Care for transabled people would probably be good, but they would most certainly begin the way treatment for us transfolk began in the early 20th century: either lock it up, lobotomize it, or shun it. It took many years for Harry Benjamin and his colleagues to come up with standards that were comprehensive. We all have ideals, but I know of many, many doctors who feel that transsexual surgery is harmful, and even I think that making oneself a paraplegic through surgery is somewhat questionable in the sense that it creates a significant change in a person’s ability to live a fully independent life–I always worry that I will be a burden to my family. I would hate that, and if I were to end up disabled (I really hate that word), I am sure my family would take care of me as best they could. But let’s face it, folks, it’s not about being happy in this country. I can’t have surgery unless someone else approves of my choices, and even though it’s my body, I have no control over it at all. Unfair or not, it’s truth. For now, at least.

Hi Eric,

It is not uncommon for transsexuals to be disowned by their families and friends when they say it’s finally time to transition.

We all know that it’s a risk and we all take it because aligning our bodies and minds is worth it. (Of course those that never transition could believe that for them it is *NOT* worth the risk!)

I would be more worried about being disowned or divorced than being a burden.

Have to admit that Standards of Care for transabled people would probably be good, but they would most certainly begin the way treatment for us transfolk began in the early 20th century: either lock it up, lobotomize it, or shun it.

This is part of the reason why I’m so adverse to the idea of having BIID officially classified as a mental illness - despite the advances in understanding of the mind, and human behaviour, this is STILL the prevailing response of the MH professional community to anything new.

While I’d agree that there are many issues with the way mental health professionals handle many conditions, I think that there *has* been some advances in thinking and I don’t believe that the lock-up/lobotomize/shun combos are on the horizon.

We must get our foot in the door, somehow. Then readjust. I don’t believe that labelling BIID as a mental illness at this point would be such a negative thing.

Trans-maybe’abled’ism ?
I read recently in a newspaper a article ..about a story of a 3 year old boy who wanted to change his gender.
It was wierd ..thinking back..that something like this can start so young ? The story continued and eventually the boy turned 5yrs of age,and then began wearing girls clothes..and the parents eventually supported this change.
The attraction for boy child to be like his mother ..isn’t always a indication …that this person will want a sex change later in life ? Yet I can’t help but thinking ..that wanting to wear braces started for me when I was around 7 years old.
I wondered..
Is there a genitic code..encrypted into some peoples minds to be a certian way(so soon after they are born ) it becomes evident in many cases of sex change and wannabe needs ..that this developes from early childhood..?
If this is true ..what does this mean about human evolution ?
I dis-agree in this case that BIID should be labeled as a mental disease..unless it leads one into very self destructive action’s ?
Yet in the newspaper article ..what got the parents attention was that thier 3 year old boy tried to cut his penis off with apiar of sizzors !
The fact that self destructive forces came into play at 3 years old ..in order to have a differant body image ..was really wierd .
After the parents agreed to let the boy wear girls clothes..he agreed not to cut off his penis.
Hmmmm..is this the same for wannabes ?
I am a maybe ‘wannabe’ in that the idea of doing anything self destructive ..is a maybe .
I then wondered (after reading the article)how sexuality becomes connected to being dis-abled..when one ‘knows’ at a such a early stage of life ..that he or she shall be another gender..or be dis-abled in some way..?
I think medical science needs to study this ..without making judgements aganist people who are effected by these needs .
Also..I am very sure ..my upcoming trip into eastern Europe will result in me finding a doctor to do a ”Femoral nerve” surgey..?
The question here is ..how much I really want to get this done ? In the meantime ..I am feeling(after my trip to India last Dec.) less effected by the need to be crippled…and wear braces .
I am getting out a lot more ..without my leg braces..I guess I am in a sort of ‘remission’ from wannabeism..and living now in maybeism ?
In a few weeks I will get a surgey..to temporarily paralyize me legs ..I want to finally experiance how it would be to really need to be in braces..
Yet..since this experiance will only be a few short hours…it will be enough ?
I think there has to be a new term for people like me..its called trans-maybe’abled-ism ..
Oh..well

Pardon me for being the token outsider here, but I was interested and wanted to comment.
I have been a wheelchair-user since the age of 8 due to a congenital SCI. The reason why I wanted to comment was in response to two things in this article and the comments afterwards. I’ve never heard of transabledism, and while I applaud your efforts to raise the profile and gain understanding, this confuses me.

1) Marie mentions an example of a transabled condition: “For example a person may have an identity of someone that is paralysed,” which made me wonder - what exactly do people believe is the “identity” of someone who is paralyzed? While certain generalizations can be made about gender identities relating to the characteristics of owning certain genitals, the social roles played by such ownership, etc, people with paralysis are not such a homogeneous group - there is more that separates us than we have in common.

2) The point is repeatedly made that transabledism does not place any burden on society, and harms nobody… I have to take issue with this, given the idea of going to surgical methods to achieve true transability. Perhaps many forms will have no effect on anyone else - I can imagine that being deaf would not seriously harm anyone else, or learning disabled, for example. However, certain types of disability can and will place extra burden on social systems, resources and probably family and friends that wouldn’t have been there otherwise. Following this to the end result, if someone were to pay a surgeon to have their spine damaged at T12, that person would require regular physical therapy, medical visits, drugs, diagnostics, and medical equipment to sustain and protect their health. None of these would be optional in this event… and seem a really high price to pay (both physically and socially) for achieving the “TA goal.” All of these things are enormously expensive and are borne by either the individual themselves, the public health system, or private health insurance. Since most hospitals, clinics, doctors and nurses are government subsidized in some way (enormously in Canada and the UK), the cost to the government would be huge.

I do not mean to judge, I am just very confused at this prospect.

The question is not whether there is a cost or not - obviously there is a cost to it - but whether the cost of providing the treatment outweighs the cost of NOT doing it. In many cases, the costs incurred by depriving the BIID patient of proper treatment (i.e. physical ‘damage’ to the body) include immense expenses in therapy, mood-control drugs, and, in many cases, a suboptimal level (or complete lack) of productivity - all of which can be offset by the treatment. Yes, those costs would be exchanged for the cost of surgery, rehabilitation, and support, but a primary difference is that the former set of costs are completely wasted, whereas the latter set are most frequently effective (although I do yield that the population of those who have been successful at receiving these treatments is very limited).

Further, we must remember that cost is measured on more axes than just financial - if that were the only ‘cost’ that counts, we would have neither life-support nor comfort measures for terminally ill patients. Even in the cases where the financial cost of treating BIID properly clearly outweighs the financial cost of withholding such treatment, there is the matter of quality of life to be considered. It leads down a dangerous path if we begin denying effective treatments to provide quality of life for patients simply on the basis of financial cost.

First i ask you to excuse my english - it’s not my native language.

I’m a M2F post-op transsexual, so i can understand some of the discussed aspects very well. Nevertheless a had the requiring to add some more comments.

Proposing that there are also physical reasons that a person will become transabled, i would expect a much less percentage of transabled than transsexual persons. At the beginning of a pregnancy the foetus is a neutrum and has to change to female or male - it has not to change from disabled to healthy, it has “only” to grow. The first process bears more possibilities that
something can go wrong than the second.

Most transsexual persons (there are also variants) like to change from one healthy state to another. My wish was clearly to get rid of this male body and that ugly thing between my legs. But - i would also like to have the regular organs of a woman and the possibility to become pregnant. Transposed to your situation i wouldn’t get rid of my legs, i would like to have two other legs.

If there is no possibility for a successfull therapy, i would also agree to medical measures. With this agreement i would also put a question for discussion: “Has there to be a border? What surgeries are allowed? Are ultimate “solutions” possible?”

Such surgeries could also be paid from the health insurance, but i would say no to a disability pension.

Hello Katja,

You make interesting points and ask difficult questions :)

What surgeries should be allowed? I’m not sure. There is a surgeon that apparently does black market amputations out of Asia, but refuses to amputate both legs because “it’s too extreme” and refuses to do paraplegia for the same reason. Yet, we know that paraplegics can lead long, healthy and productive lives. I also know many vent dependent quadriplegic who are leading long, healthy and productive lives, so who am I to say that someone’s request to be come vent dependent and quadriplegic is not appropriate, or too extreme? In the end, I think it comes down to the ability for independence (whichever form that takes), long term health, and the ability to be productive.

As for disability pensions… I tend to agree that one shouldn’t be allowed to self injure, then get on benefits. OTOH, the impact of BIID on people is such that some people who have BIID and depression are on benefits *now*, without their required impairment.

Clearly, this is not what nature intended. The comment that surgeries etc. ought to be performed as long as the person is consenting and is not harming others is not only void of reasoning but selfish. Others ARE affected: partners, families, society (who will bear the burden of caring for someone who has inflicted a deficit in his/her functioning and ability to care for one’s self). As a therapist, I encourage all who have these feelings to go much deeper as to the reasons for these desires, and focus on coping with the negative thoughts and keep yourself safe from harm. This is not normal and to give into the impulse to harm self (as in suicide) is doing yourself and your loved ones and society a grave disservice. And remember, you may come to a day where you deeply regret any harm you did to yourself. Be logical: you were born whole for a reason, to enable you to live life to its fullest without obstacles. Ask your self how you benefit from harming yourself. Don’t settle for being comfortable now with the new body image. Go past that; in what specific ways will you benefit. That is what you need to focus on and analyse and get through.

Margaret

Margaret I sincerely hope you never give “therapy” to a transsexual. That line of thinking has caused nothing but hurt. “Oh just get over it! LOL!”

There’s a reason the success rate for genital reassignment surgery is very high: Because it works. Hiding doesn’t, ignoring it doesn’t. Because guess what? When there’s no other escape the person’s suicide will affect people more than “changing gender”. Waiting 20 years before coming out having spent the time “tring to cope with the negative thoughts” it affects the wife and children and friends. Dealing with GID and BIID early will prevent both suicide and other people from having to deal with someone else’s needs if they don’t want to.

We are born “whole” as we are with our selfidentifications and problems. Why should we deny our own brain chemistry and basic needs? Seems like obnoxious the religious nonsense (”How dare you secondguess god’s plan?”) zealots spew forth when they don’t approve with someone else’s personal choices in life.

Don’t take this comment as a flame (even though it is): I vehemently disagree with the aversion therapy people preach towards us. Please post again! Dissenting views are good to read.

Margaret, thanks for your comments. While what you say seems reasonable at first glance, it was spoken like someone who has no understanding of BIID, has never tried to counsel someone with BIID and who has done absolutely no research on BIID. It’s been said time and time again in the formal research done on BIID (which clearly you haven’t read) - talk therapy DOES NOT WORK. It doesn’t touch BIID. And as for regretting harm we’ve done ourselves, again the overwhelming anecdotal evidence (which you also clearly haven’t researched) from those who have been able to achieve their desired disability is satisfaction with the results and and end to the torment of BIID - and that the disability caused is more than a fair exchange for peace of mind. And as for affecting others such as our families and society…they ARE already affected by our depression, obsession, and frustration…the effects of mental illness. And I would argue that the psychological effects of BIID are more devastating to all concerned than physical disability is.

It’s much easier for someone on the outside - particularly one who is in a position of authority and control - to simply express how they wish the world worked, and simply dismiss the arguments of those with actual experience, when those arguments contradict the worldview of the academic theorist. It becomes even easier for those experiences to be officially dismissed when those espousing them can be categorised as ‘mentally ill’, which is a carte blanche for society to dismiss their beliefs, feelings, needs, and experiences as irrelevant.

As for the question of ‘what nature intended’, it is fairly clear that nature intended for species to cull their weakest members, rather than diverting resources from the most fit to survive to those who need assistance. However, that is one of the differences between civilized societies and the wilds: we, as an intelligent species, are capable of using our cognitive functions, as well as our sense of compassion, to deviate from nature’s intentions at times. As such, any argument based on those intentions fails miserably.

"it was spoken like someone who has no understanding of BIID, has never tried to counsel someone with BIID and who has done absolutely no research on BIID."

This seems to indeed be the case. It pays for people to read a bit more about BIID before making sweeping judgements. http://biid-info.org is a good starting point to find research papers and articles about BIID.

As an aside, Margaret doesn’t specify which type of therapist she is. Could be she’s not a psycho-therapist at all, maybe she’s a physical therapist or occupational therapist…

Maybe a massage therapist. What astounds me, is the condescending reactions to BIID and our feelings by people who are supposed to be enlightened professionals! One would think the profession has learned from its past mistakes eg. how transgender issues were “dealt with” 70 years ago. If it does not fit the mold their brain was forced into during 8 years of university, then it gets ‘WHACKO-HANDLE WITH CAUTION’ stamped onto it. Makes me wonder what little minds have gleefully nailed framed diplomas onto their office walls.

As for the question of ‘what nature intended’, it is fairly clear that nature intended for species to cull their weakest members, rather than diverting resources from the most fit to survive to those who need assistance. However, that is one of the differences between civilized societies and the wilds: we, as an intelligent species, are capable of using our cognitive functions, as well as our sense of compassion, to deviate from nature’s intentions at times. As such, any argument based on those intentions fails miserably.

Standing ovation for that one, Kyla!!

While I do agree that a “life experience” model would be of benefit, I do have serious problems comparing a medical model (transsexual) to a non medical model (BIID). For example, the purpose of a medical assessment for GID/transsexuality is because certain untreated mental conditions will produce the conviction of the need to be the other gender (schizophrenia being one). “Life experience” is to evaluate the motivation and adjustment of the person involved (for example if the person is only going to nightclubs with an “I’m so sexy” attitude, they probably won’t pass). Also because reality and fantasy are two different things. I myself had this fantasy about being blind at 6 or 7 (too many books about Helen Keller) - did it for three days, never had a fantasy about it again. Obviously a “life experience” could help to seperate those who can recieve other forms of treatment.

But gender identity is something which is hardwired into humans and through the horrid “nature v. nuture” sex assignments of the 60’s and 70’s, now conditions like intersex or ambigious genitalia wait until gender identity presents for assignment. Even the phrase GID is contested, because the “older generation” of specialists viewed it as a sexual dysfunction whose only treatment was a sex change - they viewed it akin to pedophilia (unable to change self view and behavoir) while the new generation, due to advances in brain chemistry science and other scientific studies see it more in a medical state. However, the majority of transsexuals which to be the appropriate gender (as in “I am a female” or “I am a male”) while only a small percentage will have transsexual as their identifier.

With BIID, I can’t see how you could do a medical model unless you want to test to see if able bodied and non abled bodied is somehow hardwired into babies? It would appear that BIID actually has far more in common with body dysmorphia than transsexualism. Both are resistant to traditional treatment (both have a core which is resistant to treatment at all). Both have people who are distinctly unhappy with the body they have and will go to great lengths to achieve what they desire (of course the advantage BIID has here is that 1/6th of people of BIID don’t starve to death - has any studies been done on percentage of suicide though?).

I understand the attraction to ally with transsexual as it now has a medical model (and three generations of trials and follow up studies) - however, you should know that the majority of medical people still see it as GID which is classified as a mental disorder and in many countries as a disability - that’s why it is in the DSM (much as homosexuality was 40 years ago). If you link to GID, you are saying, “Yes, there is something mentally wrong with us which can’t be fixed.” - which I think is not your intention. You could however consider the social impact model, such as body image dismorphia where the person has integrated the ideas spread by society to such a point that society, as a force, will continue to create this mental force on individuals as long as society continues to hold on to particular ideas.

Beth,

My take on GID is that it is something wrong with the brain, but not a exactly a mental illness. The brain identifies one way but the physical body (genitals and every cell in the body) identify the body another way. Transsexuals are treated surgically because nothing else works short of brainwashing and selfdelusion a la “Ex-Gays.” The body is far easier to change compared to the mind.

One can consider GID’s presence in the DSM because the disorder manifests itself in such a way that it presents as a mental illness. Severe depression, self-harm, and other fun stuff. Seems better to have GID in writing in a book for shrinks to be reminded of its presence so they can’t fob the diagnosis off a some crackpot theory. Of course, I could be wrong. I’m torn on GID’s presense in the DSM and its name. Some days I prefer “Harry Benjamin’s Syndrome” for political reasons and wish it was out of the DSM (We’re NOT crazy!) and other days I don’t care.

Why is it so bad to be labelled as having a mental illness? Could someone tell me what the F*** is so bad about it? Obviously, society’s pressures and perception make it a negative, but I fail to see how a mental illness should be perceived any more, or less, negatively than blindness, or paraplegia.

As far as I’m concerned, I would much prefer to see BIID listed in the DSM, because it has to be listed *somewhere* before medical professionals take us seriously. I say, put it in the DSM, start studying in properly (studies for origins of, causes of, as well as treatment options, including surgery). Then in 25, or 50 years from now, work at getting it removed from the DSM if appropriate. I’m much with marie about BIID manifesting itself with depression, self-harm and “other fun stuff”.

I don’t mind saying “yes, there’s something wrong with me that can only be fixed through surgery”.

As for the comparison to body dysmorphia, there’s one major element that is different. In general, those with dysmorphia view their body as wrong, or abnormal, whereas those with BIID know that our body parts are perfectly normal, they just don’t fit with our mental map of our bodies.

Dr. First, who is an editor of the DSM, and who coined the term BIID came up with BIID with the concept of GID in mind.

Simply put: because once a person is labeled as mentally ill, any chance, no matter how slight, that may have existed for that person’s expression of his/her needs to be taken seriously by the medical community, is completely and irrevocably negated. That’s all. A label of mental illness is a guaranteed assurance that we can simply be dismissed and ignored, told that it’s all in our heads, and thus be denied not only the physical treatments that we need, but even the right to be heard by physicians or properly studied.

I completely, utterly and absolutely disagree with that Kyla… :)

It should be noted that the conclusions from the post mortem studies carried out on transsexuals have received fairly damning criticism in the scientific community. The researchers, themselves, had to reassess their initial findings after they failed to take into account the hormones that the transsexual individuals had taken in their lifetime.

There is currently no concrete evidence that Bstc (the area supposedly responsible for ‘brain sex’) is responsible for transsexualism. To claim this as fact or truth (as many do) is, at this point in time, pure speculation

Lydia, Source?

I don’t see mental illness as being a bad thing for BIID to be labelled as. At least, as Sean put it, for now.

Homosexuality, for example, remained repressed and unspoken of for a period, and was then categorized as a mental illness.

It was only a matter of time that it became relatively accepted by society. I’m not saying that being gay and BIID are the same, I’m just saying they’ll probably suffer similar circumstances. And even if current BIID sufferers don’t reap the rewards of their efforts to get it known, at least they may know they have given BIID people of the future a better chance of a mentally satisfactory life.

Living a lie is the worst human punishment.

I agree, Sean…I think that everyone who says “I don’t want it called a mental illness” is just propegating (sic) the stigmatizing that those with mental illnesses have to face in this society. And it’s not fair. On the other hand, as someone who has dealt with Major Depression since I was 16 (I’m 30 now), I understand not wanting to have to deal with the stigma if you don’t have to. It’s a burden and difficult to bear.

I am a social work student, actually studying BIID for a research paper, and came upon this forum and had some things to add. As a member of the LGBT community, I think I can lend some insight about transgender folk as well as the issues of the DSM.

My friends who are transgender see the fact that GID is in the DSM in this way: It’s how we get our surgery paid for.

It’s a crappy diagnosis, yes, and one that replaced homosexuality in the DSM III, if you want to know the truth, but I think that it’s not as stigmatizing to be put in there as it could possibly be. Now, I do have a friend who was hospitalized in the 1980’s for GID (against his will) - wrote a book called the Last Time I Wore a DRess…but it’s not generally something that gets people involuntarily committed.

Honestly, I think that getting BIID in the DSM would give it credibility, would get people funding for research, and would get better treatments/funding for surgeries, etc… All in all, I think it would be better than it currently is for people who have BIID.

My thoughts,

Amanda

Your comments are much interesting boys, but … : the main question remains open, completely unanswered : I want to obtain an amputation - and no surgeon is ready to perform it, although most of them are now ready to accept transgender surgeries. Should I put my legs under the wheels of a heavy lorry to become a DAK ?
Michael, from Brussels - Belgium.

I’m a transsexual man (female-to-male, FTM), so I’m trying really hard to keep an open mind here, but I can’t see any more than a most superficial connection between transsexualism and BIID.

Transsexuals are a diverse group, so some will take issue with the following. In my experience, the defining characteristics of transsexualism are:

1. An overall discomfort with one’s gendered body configuration, present from about age 3 or 4.

2. Identification with the opposite sex/gender, and the sense that ones brain, soul, etc. belongs to that sex/gender.

3. An awareness from at least puberty-onward that the hormonal milleu produced by one’s body is wrong for his or her brain, experienced as a traumatic hormone imbalance during puberty.

4. All transsexuals (in my opinion) pursue hormone replacement therapy (HRT) at the very least. Most also pursue some type of surgery. Almost all FTMs get double mastectomy/chest reconstruction. Most also get hysterectomy/oophorectomy, but there are reasons for that in addition to personal choice, including the presence of fibroids or cysts, and the fact that doctors recommend it with 5 years of starting HRT as a cancer prevention measure. Few FTMs obtain genital surgery (partly due to cost and the imperfections of the current technology).

Among transsexual women (MTF), most seem to pursue genital surgery and view that as the end of transition, while FTMs tend to view transition as more open-ended, with each treatment, surgery or stage as a milestone, but not the end of the journey.

The goal for both is to become more comfortable in our skin, to live life more fully, to be ourself openly–indeed, to become more able-bodied. Pre-treatment, transsexualism is like a handicap.

I will point out that I feel very strongly about that every individual should have absolute sovereignty over his or her body. No one should ever have medically unnecessary surgeries performed against his or her will, or without his or her consent, including neonatal circumcision and sex assignment of intersexed infants. Individuals should also to free to do whatever they wish with their own bodies.

But– Able-bodied individuals also have a responsibilty to take care of themselves, work for a living, contribute to the economy and society, help others who are less fortunate, etc. So, I find questionable the desire to be rid of one’s able-bodied status.

Sean wrote, “Why is it so bad to be labelled as having a mental illness?”

“A psychiatric diagnosis is more than shorthand to facilitate communication among professionals or to standardize research parameters. Psychiatric diagnoses affect child custody decisions, self-esteem, whether individuals are hired or fired, receive security clearances, or have other rights and privileges curtailed. Criminals may find that their sentences are either mitigated or enhanced as a direct result of their diagnoses. The equating of unusual sexual interests with psychiatric diagnoses has been used to justify the oppression of sexual minorities and to serve political agendas. A review of this area is not only a scientific issue, but also a human rights issue.” — Dr. Charles Moser and Peggy Kleinplatz in a 2005 paper published in the Journal of Psychology and Human Sexuality

Hello Wolfgang, thank you for your comment. I understand you are uncomfortable with BIID, most people are. Please let me address some of your points.

1. An overall discomfort with one’s gendered body configuration, present from about age 3 or 4.

Most transabled individual have an overall discomfort with their bodies from a very young age. My first memories relating to this go back to age 3 or 4. I am not alone.

2. Identification with the opposite sex/gender, and the sense that ones brain, soul, etc. belongs to that sex/gender.

Replace “sex/gender” with disability/impairment and you have the experience of a transabled individual.

3. An awareness from at least puberty-onward that the hormonal milleu produced by one’s body is wrong for his or her brain, experienced as a traumatic hormone imbalance during puberty.

Well, here we don’t have hormone issues, but we experience trauma at living in a body that is “wrong”

4. All transsexuals (in my opinion) pursue hormone replacement therapy (HRT) at the very least. Most also pursue some type of surgery. Few FTMs obtain genital surgery (partly due to cost and the imperfections of the current technology).

There is no hormone to take. The vast majority of transabled individuals would pursue surgery, but IT IS NOT AVAILABLE TO US. If surgery was an accepted option for transabled inviduals, we would jump at the change.

The goal for both is to become more comfortable in our skin, to live life more fully, to be ourself openly–indeed, to become more able-bodied. Pre-treatment, transsexualism is like a handicap.

Our goal is for us to be more comfortable in our own skins, to live life more fully, to be ourselves, openly. In effect, an impairment is our way to wholeness. Not having an impairment creates a disabling condition for us.

But– Able-bodied individuals also have a responsibilty to take care of themselves, work for a living, contribute to the economy and society, help others who are less fortunate, etc. So, I find questionable the desire to be rid of one’s able-bodied status.

You are assuming that people with disabilities are unable to take care of themselves, work, and be productive members of society. You are further assuming that transabled individuals are seeking an impairment to get on benefits, which is absolutely not the case. In face, it is without a physical impairment that we are less productive, less able to work, etc.

Right on, Sean!

I definitely agree with Sean’s last point. There are so many times when I withdraw from activities, part-time jobs (I’m a student), even going to the local restaurants — all because I just didn’t feel comfortable going “out in the world” as able-bodied. But when I’m in my wheelchair on wheeling trips, I actually engage with the outside world a lot more and want to do more with my life. It’s quite a drastic change.

Sean, you, and others, certainly speak of your condition using much the same language we do. I guess I just don’t/can’t understand why you would want to mutilate a healthy body part. Why? Yes, I know, people say the exact same thing to us transsexuals. But when a transman has a mastectomy, the surgeon uses the external tissues to create a flat, male chest. When a transwomen gets a vaginoplasty, the surgeon inverts her penis to create a functional neovagina. We don’t merely have these body parts chopped off, and of course their alteration doesn’t affect our ability to see, hear, or walk.

In all honesty, I not happy with the idea of you trying to draw comparisons between BIID and transsexualism. Transsexuals would be a lot more tolerant of you if you stopped doing that, and found your own language to discuss your condition with, unless you can somehow prove (using scientific research) that there’s a connection.

Two studies from the Netherlands have shown that the BSTc region of the hypothalamus is sexually dimorphic, and that those of transsexuals correspond to our gender identity. The studies also showed that hormones have no effect on the size of that region, which is about twice as large in males and transmen as females and transwomen. A recent study on phantom limbs found that most women experience phantom breasts after mastectomy but transmen don’t, and most men experience phantom penises after losing theirs in accidents, but transwomen, following vaginoplasty, don’t. Studies on mice and fruit flies have suggested a genetic basis for gender-specific behavior, and there are plenty of examples of cross-gender behavior throughout the animal kingdom.

The question is, are there any cases of animals exhibiting symptoms of BIID? If you want to be taken seriously, you’ll need to find that kind of evidence in addition to brain studies. Without any science to back up your claims, the only thing I can think is “Weird!,” but don’t take that too harshly because I’m pretty weird myself. I certainly support the informed-consent model of medicine, so, to each his/her own.

Wolfgang I just have to raise one point with your first reply:

But– Able-bodied individuals also have a responsibilty to take care of themselves, work for a living, contribute to the economy and society, help others who are less fortunate, etc. So, I find questionable the desire to be rid of one’s able-bodied status.

This is the kind of talk that kept us (transfolk) from treatment and surgery because we have otherwise healthy reproductive capabilities. Are we sterile people disabled because we can’t reproduce? Have we become unable to contribute? Others find that choice to be questionable as well.

By the way, Beethoven composed most of his famous Symphony no. 9 when he was “disabled” — stone deaf! ;-) Georgina Beyer (former New Zealand MP) is a transsexual, too!

@Wolfgang, I would say that “able-bodied”, “normal” and the like are relative terms. There is no perfect or ideal mind or body against which everyone’s must be measured. Anyhow, the point being made here, as I understand it, is that our body image doesn’t conform to the body we have. It’s nice that someone has maybe found something going on with the hypothalamus that might account for sexual identity, but the transabled community has not been able to stir enough constructive interest among the medicos to get to anything like that place.

Marie wrote, “Are we sterile people disabled because we can’t reproduce?”

Good point. I never thought of that as a disability, but I guess that’s the same thing BIID sufferers are saying about their limbs and senses.

Maybe there is some sort of body map in the brain, though it may be more complicated than that. There are ganglions (mini-brains) throughout the body to consider as well.

Wolfgang, FWIW, there is a team of neurologists, including a world reknown one, Ramachandran, out of UCSD who have found indications in MRI brain scans of BIID individuals that there is something “wonky” with the areas of body schema… Not proof at the moment, just solid indication that it’s likely to be more than purely psychological, likely neuropsychological.

One of the problems that arises in these debates (for transsexuals as well) is that science is finding that all so-called “psychological” manifestations have a physical neurological basis, whether chemical, structural, or both. “psychological” is in fact an antiquated and purely subjective concept.

The question then becomes one of individual autonomy vs. public interest. That’s, ultimately, the contruct in which all minority arguments will need to be framed. But for now, the general public needs to see scientific data, and, unfortunately, small demographics tend to be overlooked by researchers, even though such research can reveal useful information about the human body in general.

I will freely admit that when I first read about BIID, my initial reaction was identical to the reaction we transsexuals get from others. I won’t deny that the idea of purposely “handicapping” onesself makes me uncomfortable. On that note, I’m going to spend some time analyzing my reaction in the hope of becoming a better person.

HA! Tit for tat. My reaction to transsexuals has always been similar to your initial reaction to BIID. Then when I started to seriously consider my BIID, its implications, and the possibility and desirability of surgery, I realized that some re-thinking regarding transsexuals was in order. :o)

Astonished to realise that I, diagnosed TG M to F, but not proceeded with for 50+ years, have this condition. To the extent that I have seriously investigated self-castration, but never carried it out, because I have never found a “safe” way of ensuring my survival. Its my own personal problem, but I shall probably go to my grave never having been understood, or forgiving myself for feeling this way.
I do not understand it either, although its very real, to me.
Love and luck to all.

The main problem I have with all this BIID crap is the fact that no-one seems to have pointed out the essential differences between transsexuals and the amputees - namely that the transsexual has genital/breast surgery to enable her/him to live more fully and happily and BE THE SAME as everyone else while the amputee wants to curtail and induce various difficulties into their life and BE SEEN as different from everyone else.
And then might I ask what about the change of sexual orientation frequently seen in transsexuals compared to amputees? If a male/female lops of a leg/arm/eye does that make him/her more attractive to the same or the opposite sex?
Does the married amputee (is there such a thing?) think about the real and daily physical problems he/she causes his/her partner immediatly after amputation and in old age when the lack of a limb will increase the spouse’s and the health service’s costs and problems?
When does the desire for amputation start? In the womb or when playing doctors and nurses as infants?
Amputees are sick in the head - but I’d love to eavesdrop on a meeting of them to listen to them rationalising their behaviour.

Rose; You have really missed what has been posted on this site.

People with BIID want to end their suffering, and wish the medical community would take it seriously and come up with a treatment, other than the extreme.

Those of us who suffer with BIID suffer as those who require gender reassignment. We have had these feelings since early childhood, then suffered with having to deal with it from the time we realized it was not normal. We can not nor do we expect others to know exactly how we feel, we want this condition to be taken seriously.

Is some body becoming disabled to rid themselves of the need any more of a burden to their loved ones than a TG person who enters a heterosexual relationship with an individual wishing to raise a family naturally with their partner?

Those who contribute to this site have given the ramifications of their desires a lot of thought. Certainly all of us have given thought to how this would impact others. It should be obvious that they are not raving lunatics, or some fringe group looking for legitimacey. You are dealing with high functioning individuals here.

We do not wish to gain sympathy or empathy from onlookers. None of us want to become charity cases, wards of the state. We are not exhibitionists. Most of us do not give a hoot how others perceive us, this is about our own self image and a burning desire we can not explain nor fully understand. We all want a cure, right now the only cure that seems to work is surgery.

I think gender reassignment is accepted by the general public to what ever degree it is simply because it is politically correct to do so, not out of enlightenment. Those who make known their negative opinions on the topic are considered somewhere in the realm of Holocaust deniers.

Rose your comments are based on the assumption that BIID is attention/sexually driven when we have said countless times here our problems are not about other people.

I also think the disability rights community would have something to say about ur statement “Amputees are sick in the head”.

…I guess with the rose, sometimes you get the thorns…

…I think the people that have already commented have said most of what needed to be said.

BIID “crap,” Rose?

I’m sorry, but if you expect us to explain all of this to you, we need to know that you’re willing to listen with an open mind and without prejudice. Otherwise, it’d feel like we’re explaining something to a brick wall.

It’s like saying to gays, “Explain to me about this homosexuality nonsense.”

Rose is using a blanket term “amputee” to refer to people who have BIID. Of course, that’s not in the least accurate, as most amputees become amputees through accident, disease, or congenital conditions, and of course don’t wish or seek amputeeism in the least. Rose is confusing these people with the transabled or “BIID sufferers” who *desire* to be amputees, but most of whom are not actually amputees. So my point is that anyone who is entirely unable to distinguish between these two communities need not be taken very seriously.

Transsexuals are not like everyone, they need hormones the rest of their lives, the surgery takes away their gonads, so they produce no hormones and also they cant reproduce.

So they are impaired from a “normal” point of view.

And to add to what Claire said, many of us are not into amputation at all anyhow, need other conditions.

True Brice, myself included!

palsy types…

What I do say, is that I don’ t want to be turned into something I’ m not, and I don’ t wish that upon anyone, including this child. The aim of support or treatment for this child, or me, or anyone, should not be to“ normalize” them. When in …

The parallel I see between transsexualism and BIID is that in both cases non-treatment is problematic, and in both cases surgery is a quicker, more effective approach. Until someone comes up with a magic pill that takes the feelings away, surgery will remain an option. Prior to the first few sex change operations the idea was repugnant to the medical community. This attitude has not totally changed, but has altered considerably over the last 4 or 5 decades. The rational about one type of surgery being acceptable and the other not is just plain goofy. Both gender reassignment and body alteration are serious and irreversible, but which body parts are modified and in which way is rather moot.

I do understand concerns such as creating societal burdens, but come on, you could apply the same arguments to other types of volitional behavior - drinking, smoking, overeating etc.
If a person is obsessing about something to the extent that their quality of life is compromised, ignoring the issue and hoping it will ‘go away’ is not an effective treatment. Everyone is entitled to a shot at happiness and fulfillment, even if their desires are different from ours. Of course this wouldn’t extend to desires that bring harm to others, but helping someone align their emotional and physical perceptions doesn’t harm others. How about tattoos, piercings and other forms of body alteration? You cannot go to your physician and insist they pierce your tongue, but you can have that procedure performed legally, even though others don’t agree with the outcome. As a heterosexual male I have no need for body modification, but if I wanted boobs they could be legally arranged, even though that could easily jeopardize my career and family. If someone wants to become disabled, are we better off as a society to allow that or not? There are consequences to simply refusing to treat, and so far as I am aware, there currently are no effective psychological protocols to overcome either transsexualism or BIID.

The notion that transsexualism is acceptable and BIID is not makes about as much sense as deciding psychosis is OK, but depression isn’t. They are both ‘issues’ (insert your favorite term), varying in degree from person to person and the impact upon their life, but one is not more ‘virtuous’ than another, and neither would be deliberately chosen by anyone.

Thank you for another extemely perceptive and well stated comment, miked.

I have had genital surgery. It was easy for me to obtain through standard medical channels. It has vastly improved my sense of well being. If, as I suspect, becoming paraplegic will have a similar psychological effect, then I will be one happy camper.

Miked, that is the best comment I’ve read in a long time.

[...] as being “trapped in the wrong body” and needing surgery to correct the dissonance. This is the argument put forth by some transabled people. They say once they get rid of that goddamn leg, right above the knee, [...]

[...] Posted by Felicity Here’s a transgender BIID person’s perspective on the similarities. A comparison between transsexuality and transableism transabled.org Blogging about BIID Oh, yeah. I get the gist of it just fine. What I meant was that I don’t have anything specific [...]

Wow… I have read all the above and I take it in. I have quite a bit of thinking to do, and a lot of accepting…. of myself.

So I should accept my “funny” desire to be one handed? I should accept that this is a serious condition called BIID? Well, I have always had this “fantasy” and I have looked at it from different angles over time (a lot of time), but I always thought it was not acceptable and that I should fight it (and hide it) - even if I have always ended up indulging into it now and then. I’m over 40 now, and it is about time I got down to it: it won’t go away.

This discussion is somewhat of a echo of my life so far, an alternation of: “This is sick, being an amputee is NOT an option, I’m a freak” and “I need it, I don’t see how I can get on with living without it”.

It is about time I came down to it. Thank you to all of you for all this.

My heart sank a little just reading your post Tom. That creeping, horryifying realization that this problem isn’t going anywhere….it’s nightmarish. On the other hand it’s extremely comforting to know other people are out there dealing with the same thing. Good luck to you.

Sarah, yes, it is comfort to know that there’s a number of us out there, and I want to join the common effort to share and maybe find solutions, even little ones. I don’t know what your are up to, but good luck to you too.
I wrote a few pages recently about my feelings, my experiences and my life history. Sean will start publish all this next week.

Tom, it’s not easy getting to that point, but it makes a difference, releasing the weight. Welcome to the journey.

This fascinates me. How many of you realize that the GID diagnosis, indeed the entire dogma of transgenderism on which you’re relying as a rationalization for BIID, is highly suspect and totally rejected by a significant number of HBS transsexuals?

It will likely disappear into the dustbin of history over the next few years as irrelevant to the HBS experience. (Who are the very group your comparing yourselves to.)

Transgenderism is pure pseudo-science. It’s bizarre to see it being resurrected in this context.

Could it possibly be that your obsession with this fake comparison is actually exacerbating your apotemnophilia?

Joanne, I certainly am aware of the conflict happening in the GID community. Many are advocating for the removal of GID from the DSM. Yet, others are wanting it to stay there. FWIW, if GID is removed from the DSM, a very real and direct impact of it would be that SRS and hormones and other “treatment” would no longer be available through health insurance… So while the advocacy done by those of you against the inclusion in the “shrink’s bible” is valuable, it might have a rather devastating impact on many of your brothers and sisters…

Joanna also seems to be making the assumption that BIID is some sort of sexual fetish. It’s not.

Personally, I don’t get any sexual rise out of BIID, and wasn’t even aware of that assumption until someone suggested it.

Generally speaking, none of us “gets off” on BIID.

I made no assumptions about sexual fetishism…And those individuals wanting the GID diagnosis to stay in the DSM are mainly Trans-gender, Not primary HBS Transsexuals. HBS activists certainly do want themselves removed from the GID category.

Its increasingly clear that HBS transsexualism is one of many biological variations in sex formation, Just as Benjamin believed it to be.

Increasingly HBS is seen as a medical condition, not a psychological disorder. Only a few die-hard psychologists (mainly from Canada) deny that these days.

As a medical condition it will be entitled to the same considerations as any other medical condition.

I’m afraid you have hung your arguments on the wrong hook,, gentlemen.

The GID diagnosis was wrong, primary HBS transsexualism is not, and has never been an ‘identity’ problem.

In fact I confidently challenge any one of you to produce a mote of scientific or substantive evidence to prove that a misaligned identity is capable of causing any form of behavioral problem! Its junk science and you should find somewhere else to draw your validity from

Last comment from me. Your a sad little bunch and you have my pity. You cannot have my respect!
BTW…check out my blog URL :-)

Joanne, I think you will find that we are aware of a lot of things. I am intersexed, and for years I have been a strong advocate at the local level of including people with HBS in the intersex community. That’s just not relevant to BIID though.

BIID is no more a sexual fetish than HBS, or any other intersex condition.

Your a sad little bunch and you have my pity

And you are a patronising, ignorant individual. Piss on pity. I had already seen your blog URL. I thought about responding to you there, but considering your approach here, I see no point. FWIW, you consistently use “apotemnophilia”, which relegates BIID to the state of a sexual fetish. Had you bothered to do any reading in the academic literature, you’d have seen that it is NOT the case.

Joanne, I have been to your website and I happen to agree with most of what you say about HBS. I also know personally the scientists at the Karolinska Institute, who you cite in support of your position, since I have been engaged in similar work. I AM on your side. I find it utterly absurd and ignorant that you are not on my side.

Its simple: You attempt to colonize the distress of one group to legitimize your own.

The process is positively parasitic. I’ve no respect for parasites. I don’t doubt your perceived distress. But the way you rationalize to yourselves is a disgrace.

You were always going to run into an HBS activist if you kept this shit up!

As for you Chloe, I don’t know your scientific background…or if you even have one. Personally mine is law and comparative politics politics.

It demands evidence, not speculation and conjecture. If you claim to have a scientific education, then you have abandoned the scientific method.

You,, all of you deserve shaming. Not for distress but the way you deal with it!

Then tell us, how else should we deal with it? Tell us ONE solution that has proven to work.

We keep hearing stuff like “you guys need help” but NOBODY has directed us to anything that even remotely helps.

And it’s nice that you glossed over what I said about sexual assumptions and what Sean said about your use of the word “apotemnophilia” (which was what made me think you were making sexual assumptions in the first place). Did you even look up the meaning of the word before you used it? It seems to be like you didn’t, and thus failed to do the proper research before making snap judgments.

Geez, Joanne, you’re almost as bad as a Youtube commenter. (no research, incorrect assumptions, etc) We have your pity? We don’t need pity. In fact, we don’t WANT pity. I almost pity you… Coming in here and making such ignorant posts, which are almost guaranteed to earn you some flames. Maybe that’s just what she wanted…
On a side note, it’s somewhat fitting that this post was the first that caught my eye when I logged on… That’s all that’s been on my mind for the last few days, due to a close friend informing me that he was/is transgendered… I kinda already knew, it’s not exactly a SECRET with him, but it was still funny to hear him announce it at lunch the other day. (Honestly, you begin to suspect something when a guy walks up to you, steals your calculator, and introduces himself as “Ninja-boy’s fangirl”.)
(Ninja-boy is a kid that used to go to my school)
So, not strictly relevant, but that’s my post. The end. ^_^

I was going to write out a nice reply to you, Joanne, but instead I think that I will stoop to your level:

You’re over 50 years old. Is your life so sad that you feel the need to cling onto your transsexual identity? From quick googling it seems that you had surgery years ago, can’t you let it go? Is your transgender identity so firm in your head after so many years that you flock and obsess on things that don’t concern you?

Why didn’t you transition when you were young, like real “primary transsexuals”? I put the phrasing in quotation marks because it’s a bogus ancient term used by old psychologists reminiscing about the 60s and transsexuals trying to justify that they’re superior to other people out of some bizarre desire to try and fit the perfect mould and convince themselves that they aren’t, in fact, “secondary transsexuals” (one has to wonder if, at that point, it isn’t really just a mid-life crisis). Would it surprise you to learn that the author of this essay wrote it when she was 26 and 2 years after having GRS? Primary HBS indeed.

Despite the strong language in this comment I would like to wish you well in removing GID from the DSM and, instead, having it recognised as a more legitimate medical condition without the silly GID-as-manifestation-of-dysphoria DSM entry. There are countless secondary transsexuals, like yourself, that are counting on it! Along the way in your unending fight and inability to let the politics go, because we all know that as things stand now no one can transition or obtain medical help.

Do continue to read and comment on transabled.org, especially after commenting that you will no longer do so. (Clever that way, I get the last word!)

Joanne, if you had the remotest clue about the scientific method you would know that a little humility is a necessary ingredient. However, it seems that you have yet to acquire the maturity to understand the concept of humility.

And, yes, speculation and conjecture are absolutely part of the scientific method.

Hmmmm….. at least you do mention the congenital factors in transsexualism…. but…
If someone disables themselves in some way, purposely, because of a fetish or phobia that ought to be treated, it would be unreasonable to expect the usual support services to be extended to such a person.
Freedom to mutilate your body is not freedom to abuse the state support systems.
Given that proviso, and that they have no dependants, so-called “trans-abled” people can do what they like with their own bodies as far as I am concerned.
However, to compare a psychological disorder (which this indubitably is) with a congenital condition like transsexualism is not only a little insulting to transsexuals, but further blurs the boundaries and reinforces the position of the “transgender” lobby in putting transsexuals into the “GLBT” box.
The comparison is odious.

Kathryn, BIID is not “indubitably” psychological. There is growing evidence that it is in fact a neurological condition, as shown in the MRI brain scan of several individual, a study led by a reknowned neurologist out of UCSD. Our need to be an amputee, paraplegic, blind or deaf is NOT a sexual fetish, nor is it a phobia. While there is a minority of people with BIID who have a sexual aspect of it, but this is far from the majority of people.

You say “get help”, but what help is there? Psychotherapy does not work. Pharmacotherapy does not work. The ONLY thing that works is for people to acquire their required impairment. Do therapy and drugs help transsexuals? I don’t think so. What would you say if I said to someone who’s transgendered “you’re sick, go seek help”? I assume you’d get upset. Well, reverse the roles for a moment…

Finally, no one here has any intention of abusing state support systems. We have a condition (whether it is psychological, neurological or psychoneurological). This condition makes us require a physical impairment. We do not want this condition. Should we be penalised because of a condition we have no control over? Should transsexuals be penalised because of a condition they have no control over? No, of course not. The fact that you are, in fact, too often shafted is wrong. Keep in mind that my “untreated” BIID is costing society a shitload more in terms of lost productivity than the costs of paraplegia would ever do.

A further thought. Transsexuals have long been ostrarcised and discriminated against. I find it unfathomable that transsexuals are so quick to turn around and discriminate against and ostracise another group of people - those who have BIID. Not only is it unfathomable, but it pisses me off.

Sadly I found out long ago that being a member of an oppressed minority is no guarantee against being oppressive or bigoted towards others. Every one of us is more than capable of prejudice based on ignorance. The mark of humanity is being able to recognise and then do something about one’s own intolerance.

Kathryn, it astounds me how people feel they can swoop in here to make judgments without informing themselves. And it\’s so easy to do so…I\’ve mentioned this fact TONS of times on many of the various boards that discuss BIID. Spend ten minutes trying to find out more about the people you\’re insulting and you\’ll find out that maybe it\’s not all as clear-cut as you think. Yet people come in, read one post, and post some ignorant comment that\’s not in the least based on fact. Google the name \”VS Ramachandran\”. He\’s one of the foremost behavioral neurologists in the world. He (along with Paul McGeoch - who from what I can tell actually does most of the work!) have been studying people with BIID including GSR tests, and MRI and MEG scans, all of which have been performed on me. They are convinced that BIID is neurological and arises from a congenital defect in the part of the brain that processes body image. If you Google their names and BIID you\’ll find information on the studies they\’ve done.

I am reminded of a discussion between myself and my psychotherapist about six years ago. I asked her what motivates some people to be mean to hermaphrodites (it happens). She explained that people who perceive themselves to be low on the social totem pole sometimes lack the maturity to deal with their own lack of self-acceptance in a healthy way. Instead they try to make themselves feel better by denigrating another minority group in order to feel superior to them. People who come here to criticise say very little about us. However, they are revealing a great deal about their own lack of self-acceptance.

To those of us with BIID: Please do not imagine that transsexuals who criticise us are even remotely representative of transsexuals as a group. I have had quite the opposite experience. I am very grateful to my transsexual friends, two of whom also have mobility impairments, for their acceptance, support and understanding of my BIID.

To those of you who come here to denigrate us: I had no more choice about having BIID than I did about being a hermaphrodite. So go ahead, make my day. Tell me I am a shameful phobic fetishist who deserves no respect, just because I am a hermaphrodite. It will make you feel better about yourself.

For people like Kathryn and Joanne, just so it’s clear and understandable (I’m even going to write this in caps, just so you can’t miss it):

BIID IS NOT A SEXUAL FETISH.

I don’t know how many times we have to say that…

To all the people with BIID
I just wanted to say, “Wow….” Before I read your comments, it was hard to believe that people with BIID were not totally crazy. It still surprises me, but I believe you.
What is even better, is that my shock in juxtaposition to your assertiveness reguarding your own BIID actually makes me more confident about the legitimacy of my GID.
This is because, while reading your comments, I tried to think of any transablist thoughts I may have had in the past or present, but I could not think of a single thing. I actually realized that I have a very personal attachment to most all of my ablism, my arms in particular.
To me this means that if you can all feel so obviously sure of your own transablism, while I have not a shread of personal understanding of it myself, then there is no reason to believe that my transgenderism needs to be understood by other people who do not have a personal understanding of it at all either.
So I just wanted to thank you all for for being who you are! ^_^

Thank you, Jo. I am of the opinion that people with BIID and people with GID are natural allies of each other. We go through a lot of analogous psychological process, even though the details may be different. I wish you the best.

Thank you Jo, I’m glad that the site and the participants have helped you figure something new for yourself :)

There are no paralells whatsoever between transsexuality and wanting to be handicapped, you sick person.

Transsexual people identify with a healthy state, and any diminishment to their functions incurred by transition, such as infertility (which nonetheless can be offset by sex cell storage), is unwanted, and only a product of the current state of medical technology. Transition has been proved by time to be necessary in relieving these persons’ stress and increasing their happiness and quality of life. On the other hand, getting your spine mangled and becoming a cripple, likely (…) never will do that for you.

Surgeries, in transsexual people, do not involve removing body parts (though eventually some tissue, such as the gonads, which are prone to cancer due to hormone therapy), and it’s the distorted vision of mostly MtF vaginoplasty as involving cutting the penis off that allows for some strained connection to be possibly (but implausibly) established.

The people on this site are unashamedly dishonest about transsexuality and its ‘paralells’ because they see it as their hope for their pathological desires to be fulfilled by the medical establishment, which, however, will never happen. And it’s further degradation of transsexualiy and transsexual people, who already have their share of troubles. Please, you sick people, leave us alone. It’s not our fault you’re deranged. Get yourselves a psychiatrist, and a life. You’ll see it will go away eventually if you find some meaning to your life…

sc, thank you for your comment. I considered not publishing it, but thought maybe once more I’d attempt explaining these issues. Someday, maybe one of you will actually read it and try to understand what we’re saying…

You know, it wasn’t so long ago that the majority of the public thought that transsexual were “sickos”. Not long ago at all. Like… It’s still happening now. I find it amazing that someone from a group that is oppressed such as transsexual can be so petty and narrow minded as what you show in your comment.

The parallels between GID and BIID have been drawn not by myself only, but by people who specialise in working with transsexuals, by world reknowned psychiatrists, and by transsexuals (pre and/or post op) who also have BIID. The parallels we draw are not meant to explain causality, that is, we are NOT claiming that we have BIID for the same, or even similar, reasons you have GID. But it is a useful comparison to explain BIID to “the masses”. Even that point is discussed in many academic papers (look for Nikki Sullivan (2008), Christopher Ryan (2008), or Sabine Muller (2009) for but three examples).

You express the sentiment that someone with a spinal cord injury becomes a criple, implying that they become useless and good for nothing. This is not an uncommon sentiment in the world at large. But it is a wrong impression. People with disabilities can, and are, working at as high levels as anyone else. Lawyers, doctors, architects, heck, Stephen Hawking (sp?) is one of the top 5 astro physicists around… You negative bias against disabilities can only negatively influence your attitude towards individuals with BIID.

You asked to be left alone. I really fail to see how our struggle makes yours worse, even if we DO draw comparative lines between GID and BIID. Next you’ll ask the gay community to turn straight because the association of “GLBT” negatively impacts your issues.

You finish by exhorting us to get a shrink and a life. Obviously you haven’t read much at all about what we’re saying. Psychiatry does NOT help with BIID. Psychotherapy does NOT help with BIID. This comes from individuals who have BIID and have attempted psychotherapy (such as myself, but others as well) for decades. It also comes from the published literature on the topic. Before you mention medication, it does not work either… As for BIID going away eventually… I’ve had this since I was 3 years old. It’s as likely to go away as your gender issues are -> Not at all.

“You sick people”? Geez, sc!

Are you not aware that within living memory state of the art surgery for MtFs consisted of castration and penectomy? Are you not aware that people used to consider transsexuals to be sick perverted sexual deviants? Where is your sense of history and perspective?

I have been a member of the local GLBTI community for many years. I have found that my transsexual friends have been particularly understanding and supportive of my having BIID because they immediately get the analogy; just as I am of them. It absolutely astonishes me that there are transsexuals who do not get this.

Maybe you just need to GROW UP!

Two good friends of mine are transgendered (that’s how they describe themselves, they don’t use the word transsexual) and I have told one of them about BIID. She understood almost immediately (once I explained to her what paraplegia was) and told me that it was perfectly ok. One day we were describing our experiences to each other, and I think we were both surprised how much the stories really matched up, especially since we grew up in very different situations and found out about our trans-whatever in different ways.
I find it interesting that whenever a person posts something like this, they tend to show that they really did no research on the subject before commenting. Maybe those who actually read about it are convinced and so they don’t post angrily?

It is amazing how tolerance can be turned on and off as if it has a switch.

The transgendered were finally taken seriously when people turned up in emergency wards years ago with mutilated genitals. Why would otherwise rational people do things like this….

Either sc is tg or has been brow-beaten by political correctness or lives in fear of the thought police. Either way, a small mind is not a terrible thing to loose.

GID is STILL considered a sick, perverted, deviant sin. Children and people are being taught by the church and other religious sects that GID is a sin and that transsexuals can choose to be normal. I was raised to believe this, even went to seminars where “ex-transsexuals” told us how they were wrong. If I can change and learn to accept GID is another mental illness then surely you can accept that BIID is just as genuine.

I believe that there may in fact be individuals who can claim to be ex-transexuals. They were not really transexuals to begin with, but probably mis diagnosed themselves. I also think that some people may believe they have BIID, but actually do not. Other issues may lead them to this conclusion. So, even if surgery is ultimately available, nobody should receive ’same day service’.

I agree with all of these points, Ronald. I suspect that most of us have tried to convince ourselves that we don’t really have BIID. It can’t be real. It’s too absurd. There must be some other explanation.

There are about a dozen reasons why people show up in a psychotherapist’s office stating that their body does not match their gender. Only one of those reasons is GID.

I love this article. I’m FTM and want to be blind and this article describes me exactly! I have noticed the same similarities between transgenderism and transablism from my personal feelings. Thank you for writing this article!

I know transpeople used to be (and still are) considered sicko but I really hope some day that both types of trans people aren’t considered sicko anymore because we’re not hurting anyone…we’re just being who we are.

“The parallels between GID and BIID have been drawn not by myself only, but by people who specialise in working with transsexuals, by world reknowned psychiatrists, and by transsexuals (pre and/or post op) who also have BIID.”

By fringe ‘researchers’ with no credibility (who are intent on media attention and unable to produce real research), you mean. I’ve never met a transsexual person who wanted to be an amputee, and not even anyone who thought this was but madness.

“But it is a useful comparison to explain BIID to “the masses”.”
Thanks for admitting your intentions, and that you are afraid to stand by yourself. Unfortunately for you they are wholly unrelated, but, unfortunately for us, this might be yet another thing to feed the general public’s transphobia.

“implying that they become useless and good for nothing.”
I’m not disabled-phobic, put no words in my mouth.
Stephen Hawking, for instance, does lead a very productive life - but still wishes he never got ill. However, there is no evidence at all that if/when you get maimed(not disabled) you’ll be a happier or more productive person, and plenty to the contrary.

“You asked to be left alone. I really fail to see how our struggle makes yours worse, even if we DO draw comparative lines between GID and BIID. Next you’ll ask the gay community to turn straight because the association of “GLBT” negatively impacts your issues.”
More putting words of in my mouth; funilly enough I’m a transsexual and a lesbian, and while I always stress gender identity and sexual orientation are different issues, because the public at large still does not know this, I have no problem in the company of cissexual homossexuals. Or jews, black people, and so on. I do have problems with pseudo-transsexuals - those people who modify their sexual phenotype out of a fetish, autohomophobia, or a mental illness, and go on to be miserable people for the rest of their lives. Transition in meant to free you, not destroy your life. My problem with amputations is that they never make anyone happier. I do have a problem with people who are their own enemies.
I’m not discriminated against by almost everyone I come in contact with, precisely because as soon as they talk to a real transsexual person they see that their ideias and stereotypes were completly wrong, and this makes us happier, better persons. People who know what transsexuality really is will reject your slurring of us by comparison, but the public at large will not, and that’s what concerns me.

“It absolutely astonishes me that there are transsexuals who do not get this.”
Never met one transsexual person who ‘gets’ that; maybe your acquaintances are mostly pseudo-transsexuals, and of course they’d relate. Maybe you’re just lying.

“I find it interesting that whenever a person posts something like this, they tend to show that they really did no research on the subject before commenting.”
That perfectly describes what was written here about transsexuality.

“If I can change and learn to accept GID is another mental illness then surely you can accept that BIID is just as genuine.”
Stop your transphobia. We’re not crazy - if want to be on that boat, ride it out alone.

“Either way, a small mind is not a terrible thing to loose [sic].”
Agreed. Losing a limb, though, that’s not very good for you.

Really, do seek a good psychologist: if they’ve been unable to help so far, that’s because they weren’t good enough. This is a mental disease, and curable - unlike transsexuality, which is not a disease and does not need curing. Keeping at this won’t get you a surgical amputation, and might well end up seriously injuring yourself with a DIY thing.

@sc I don’t think that one could say of Dr Michael First, the chief editor of the DSM that he is “fringe” or “media attention hungry” or that he has “no credibility”.

As for your comment about a good psychologist… There have been enough people with BIID talking to enough psychologists and psychiatrists that have been unable to help. I’m very sorry, but I’m FUCKING SICK AND TIRED OF BEIGN FUCKING TOLD TO GO SEEK FUCKING HELP WHEN NO FUCKING SHRINK CAN FUCKING HELP ME. There, perhaps yelling and being rude will *finally* make it clearer that we have sought help from shrinks, and they all shrug and say “sorry can’t help”.

Further, there is evidence now that BIID is actually neurological in nature (as evidenced by research coming out of UCSD). If I remember right, before evidence that GID had genetic/neurologic aspects of it, it was deemed to be all in the head too.

So, get off your your mighty horse, open your mind up, and live and let live!

I’m very sick and tired and intolerant of intolerant people today.

1) I’ve been to 4 shrinks, all 4 had never even heard of BIID, and when I finally settled on one who was willing to research it, she told me that there was no treatment protocol for it because it was “too marginal” and nothing had ever been found to cure it.

2) Please research VS Ramachandran’s study on BIID which shows compelling evidence that BIID arises from a problem with the part of the brain that processes body image, located in the temporal lobe. I other words, it’s not a “mental disease” but rather a neurological one. Please refrain from commenting until you’ve actually researched the latest findings on BIID. Thank you.

‘I’m not disabled-phobic, put no words in my mouth.’
no of course you’re not - you prefer to dicriminate against people with a mental illness, thus displaying your ignorance for all to see.
I echo what Sean is saying. If you are so comfortable with your own situation why feel the need to rant against others? Because you feel threatened and you lack confidence in your own assertions, that’s why.

Ah yes, sc, I must be lying. That explains everything, doesn’t it?

People who belittle others betray their own insecurity. Fortunately such insecurities, unlike BIID, CAN be alleviated with psychotherapy.

Thank you for helping us reach 100 comments on this post. I think that’s awesome!

Never met one transsexual person who ‘gets’ that; maybe your acquaintances are mostly pseudo-transsexuals, and of course they’d relate. Maybe you’re just lying.
***
Have you ever ASKED anyone if the ‘get’ it, or are you just saying you’ve never met any transsexuals that get it because you’ve never asked anyone? Because I know two transgendered people (that’s what they refer to themselves as) and neither of them have told me that I’m a sicko or told me to ‘get help’ or anything. Actually, we’ve just figured out that one of them is actually bi-gender, but it’s still very similar. She’s actually been the most supportive. (I don’t know the other one as well, though)

I find it interesting that you’re not actually listening to us, and pretty much repeating the same arguments over and over. Saying the same thing over and over doesn’t make it true, it just makes you sound like a fucking moron. HEY LOOK I SAID THE F-WORD. Yeah, you made me THAT angry. (My RL friends freak out when I swear because it’s very rare for me.)

Anyway, thank you for the invitation to ‘get help’. I’m sure we’d all LOVE to take your advice. And your idea that this is ‘curable’? Cool! If you could just direct us to this ‘cure’ you speak of, which you have obviously researched thoroughly, we’d greatly appreciate it! Because you obviously know more about this then we do.
Thanks!
Tora

My main concern is that some of us with BIID might start to think that transsexuals as a group are likely to be small minded bigots, based on some of the comments here. This is absolutely NOT the case. Thank you for backing me up on this, Tora.

YAY! We made it to 100. Thank you for such a fabulous post, Marie!

@Chloe WOW. 100 responses to a post. Amazing. I wonder how many of the people who are so rabidly against BIID have learned anything from this very good and long discussion.

@Sean- Probably none. People who hate something irrationally are rarely swayed by logic. Just look at the Fred Phelps and his inbred cult…

wat dus ta goalmean?

wat dus ta question mean?
We speak English here.

@Sad18 I have to support what Brice was saying. This site’s language is English. It is important to make sure we all use proper English, rather than “txt”. This is especially important because many of the visitors are not native English speakers, and would not be able to understand. Thank you for making the effort.

As somebody whose native language is NOT English, I should appreciate very much your not using abbreviations at all (with the exception of “BIID” and “GID” in this topic). For example “RL” - does it mean “real life” or what?

Something else: There’s an article in a scientific journal comparing BIID and GID:
“Clinical and Theoretical Parallels Between Desire for Limb Amputation and Gender Identity Disorder” by Anne A. Lawrence, M.D., Ph.D., published in: Archives of Sexual Behavior, Vol. 35, No. 3, June 2006, pp. 263–278 (DOI: 10.1007/s10508-006-9026-6).

There was a lecture on this comparison by T. O. Nieder from the University Clinic Hamburg-Eppendorf, Germany, on the 1st Frankfurt BIID Conference on March 6th in Frankfurt, Germany, which will be published in a book with the conference proceedings this autumn.

A researcher from the University of Graz, Austria, is working on the same topic, Prof. Dr. Roswith Roth.

There will be interesting new insights, I hope.

And that leads me to something I repeat on and on: PLEASE TAKE PART IN RESEARCH! All researchers say that they cannot find enough participants for their studies. We all want to know more about BIID, where it comes from and how it can be treated or how we can better cope with it. Even if the results will take more time and come too late for some of us ourselves, we can pave a better way for those coming after us, for the younger people with BIID.

Some addresses:
http://www.klinik.uni-frankfurt.de/zpsy/psychosomatik/pages/Mitarbeiter/stirn.htm (Dr. Aglaja Stirn, University of Frankfurt, Germany)
http://cbc.ucsd.edu/ramalab.html (Prof. Dr. V. S. Ramachandran, Dr. Paul McGeoch, David Brang, University of California)
http://www.maodes.de/erikasten/ (Prof. Dr. Erich Kasten, University of Lübeck, Germany)
http://www.neuroscience.ethz.ch/research/neural_basis/brugger_p (Dr. Peter Brugger, University Hospital of Zurich, Switzerland, other link: http://www.neurologie.unispital.ch/UeberUns/Kontakte/Abteilungen/Seiten/Neuropsychologie.aspx).

Thanks a lot!

It’s worth noting that the GID community generally has very bad impressions of Anne Lawrence and her theories.

Thanks, Sean, for this information. I didn’t want to take position towards the article, just wanted to give the details so that everybody who is interested can find the article and make his/her own picture of it. But it is really good to know that Ms Lawrence’s theories are disputed.

I forgot something very important for all who read this and have BIID - i.e. one of the most important researchers in the field of BIID:
Prof. Dr. Michael B. First, Columbia University, New York:
http://asp.cumc.columbia.edu/facdb/profile_list.asp?uni=mbf2&DepAffil=Psychiatry

If you can, please contact him and take part in his research. Yes, you!

@Phil, Yes, it’s very important to take part in Dr. First’s research. In fact, that’s the post for tomorrow :)

As one of the alleged “fringe ‘researchers’ with no credibility (who are intent on media attention and unable to produce real research)” I would like to say how much I appreciate the information that people who identify as having BIID have provided on this site, despite the fact that in doing so you clearly open yourselves to fairly constant (and extremely virulent) attack. As an academic working in what might be loosely called’ Body Modification Studies’ I think it is crucial that the relationship between what is described on this site as BIID, and other experiences of disjunction between self and body be explored as openly, and in as much detail as possible. At the same time, I understand that for a whole range of complicated historical and political reasons some people are loathe to, fearful of, or simply unable to do this - we all have our own limits, and this is inevitable, although,unfortunately often unhelpful, and damaging. Given that my own work is driven by the sort of commitment outlined above - and given the fact that so-called ’scientific’ explanations can only ever offer, at best, partial answers (in my opinion) - there are a few questions that I’d like to put to those who regularly contribute to this site. While reading through all of the entries, I noticed that someone said that BIID is a term that refers to a wide range of desires for various bodily states (of ‘impairment’ - I hate this term). The list of examples of ‘disability’ (and this one!), included being HIV+ (I think it actually said AIDS). It also struck me that ‘obesity’ (I hate this one too!) has also been described by some as a ‘disability’. The thing is, there are obviously different social responses to different desires (and different modes of embodiment)- for example, in our culture, a desire for obesity would generally be understood as a contradiction in terms, as would a desire to be HIV positive (see the moral outrage re ‘bare backing’). The same could be said of a desire to be paraplegic. Deafness, it seems to me, is treated somewhat differently, and the deaf community’s sustained criticism of the generally held assumption that all deaf people should desire cochlear implants (where appropriate) may be of some assistance in developing an argument for access to surgery that would result in deafness. Similarly, I can see why it might be helpful to draw an analogy between so-called GID and BIID, but at the same time - and as many of the critics who have commented on this site have (perhaps inadvertantly) demonstrated - sex reassignment procedures produce bodies that are largely perceived as ‘normal’, whereas amputation, for example, produces bodies that are generally perceived as less-than-normal, and therefore, as, by definition, undesirable. So in one sense at least, the analogy doesn’t really work for those desiring access to the kinds of surgeries that are mentioned on this site. There are zillions of things I want to say, and to ask those of you who regularly contribute to the discussions here, but I’ll save them for another time, and finish by raising the question of whether, rather than trying to ally too closely BIID and GID, it might be more effective to develop comparative anlyses with other forms of embodiment as well. For example, why is it that short men can now be diagnosed as ’suffering’ from Idiopathic Short Stature (ISS) and, as a result, be prescribed Human Growth Hormones, whereas people desiring, for example, an ALK amputation can’t get access to surgery, and are generally regarded as crazy. It’s not enough to say that this situation is inequitable. We have to think about why it is that we allow the former and not the latter, and how we might work to challenge the assumptions that inform both decisions. I realise that what I’m suggesting constitutes a long process, that won’t change the lives of people with BIID overnight. Given this, I think it is also necessary to fight on other levels at the same time - for example, to argue for the inclusion of BIID in the next DSM if this is what is deemed most appropriate (and I have to admit, I do have reservations about this as well as being able to see why it might be a good idea). I guess the argument reminds me of the kinds of debates that have taken place in grass roots feminist movements re things like “a women’s right to choose” - it seems to me that its possible to strategically support this right in the context of debates about access to abortion, legislation, medicare etc, whilst at the same time, in other (more ‘academic’) contexts to problematise the whole notion of rights.

@Nikki, thank you for your long comment and probing questions. I’ll probably have to write an actual post to respond to you, as the answer is likely to be longish, and somewhat getting away from the main “comparison between gid and biid”.

FWIW, I never considered you as a media hungry, fringe researcher lacking credibility. :) We don’t agree on all points, but that’s just making life interesting ;)

I’ve never really seen myself that way either, but its not a criticism that I’m unfamiliar with! Yes, I realise that my previous post was a bit of a rant - wanting to cover absolutely everything all at one, and not very well. And yes, it did get away from the BIID GID comparison. So, can I try to put my question more simply, and ask if people who identify as having BIID think that whilst it might be useful to draw on the kinds of arguments that trans people have made re their lived embodiment and their desire for/access to surgery, attempting to claim an analogical relation between the two is, ultimately, not going to produce the hoped-for results?
I also wanted to ask if anyone went to, or heard reports about, the BIID conference that was held in Frankfurt this year. Or is there another discussion board on which I should ask this question?

I believe claiming an analogical relation between the two is useful. It is the nearest, successful group to us. It can make the disorder easier to understand in the non-medical world. And after all it is not always and uniquely the medical profession that decides what should be done or not done.

Yes, I can see that the analogy appears to be useful given the successes achieved by and for trans people. I guess my concern is that running the same kind of argument won’t produce the same result because sex reassignment procedures tend, for the most part, to produce bodies that appear ‘normative’, whereas procedures which amputate, make deaf, or paraplegic, etc, produce bodies that in most people’s eyes, are ‘non-normative’ - that is, undesirable. I think this is an important difference and one that can’t BIID activists can’t afford to ignore - and in saying this I’m NOT suggesting that such perceptions are correct, or that I agree with them. But they are real, and they are incredibly powerful despite all the hard work that disability activists and scholars have put into challenging them.

It’s important to say in this context a body produced by “ability reassignment surgery” is normal in the eyes of the person undergoing the operation. The only judgement of “what is normal” that is truly relevant is one’s judgement about one’s self and one’s own body. This seems like a central point in the GID paradigm.

@Nobody. Very well stated. Thank you.

Thanks for the comment Nobody. I agree that what needs to be questioned here is the idea of a single notion of what is ‘normal’. Having been active in both feminist and GLBTQ politics, I agree that an individual’s sense of body/self should be respected and deferred to. However, this idea(l) often doesn’t translate in concrete terms. So, for example, people desiring access to hormones, or to trans surgeries have long had to express desires that appear ‘normal’ to gatekeepers. In an insightufl and really important article entitled “Mutilating Gender”, for example, Dean Spade describes in detial his failure (in the clinical context) to ‘pass’ as transsexual, and thus to qualify for the procedures he desires access to. Similarly, it seems to me that argueing for the individual’s right to bodily self-determination is not going to result in access to ability reassignment surgeries. And if it doesn’t, then we need to ask WHY it doesn’t, and to develop strategies that may prove to be more effective, don’t we?